Johnny Buschmann | Photograph by Adam Williams
Overview: Johnny Buschmann was a 4’11”, 80-pound freshman at Columbine High School in 1999 when a mass shooting changed his life, and the lives of so many others. He talks with Adam Williams about that day, the aftermath and his healing – from the shooting, from unrelated family traumas and from his lifelong struggles with mental wellbeing.
This is an incredible, full-range human conversation. There are descriptions of the school shooting, family violence and suicidal ideation. There also is extraordinary grace and forgiveness, love and joy. There is humor and laughter, and there are wild stories of mischief with Johnny and his brothers. There also are some chickens named Chicki Minaj and Cardi Bird (“’sup ladiesss!”). And other good stuff.
Or listen on: Spotify / Apple Podcasts
SHOW NOTES, LINKS, CREDITS & TRANSCRIPT
The We Are Chaffee podcast is supported by Chaffee County Public Health.
Along with being distributed on podcast listening platforms (e.g. Spotify, Apple), We Are Chaffee is broadcast weekly at 2 p.m. on Tuesdays, on KHEN 106.9 community radio FM in Salida, Colo.
Johnny Buschmann | Urabus VW
Facebook: facebook.com/urabusvw
Instagram: instagram.com/urabusvw
Instagram: instagram.com/johnny_buschmann
We Are Chaffee Podcast
Website: wearechaffeepod.com
Instagram: instagram.com/wearechaffeepod
CREDITS
We Are Chaffee Host, Producer & Photographer: Adam Williams Williams
We Are Chaffee Engineer: Jon Pray
We Are Chaffee Community Advocacy Coordinator: Lisa Martin
Director of Chaffee County Public Health and Environment: Andrea Carlstrom
TRANSCRIPT
Note: Transcripts are produced using an automated transcription app. Although it is largely accurate, minor errors inevitably exist.
[Intro music, guitar instrumental]
[00:00:13] Adam Williams: Welcome to the We Are Chaffee Podcast, where we connect through conversations of community, humanness and well being. In Chaffee County, Colorado, I’m Adam Williams.
Today I’m talking with Johnny Buschmann. Johnny owns and runs Urabus, a Volkswagen mechanic and restoration shop. But that’s what he does rather than saying so much about who he is. And really we talk very little about that part of things.
We have a huge conversation here, one that I think is very worthy of the extra time that we gave it. And I’m so happy to be able to share this here with you. If you need to hit pause and return to it from time to time, do it. That’s how podcast players are built to be used.
Johnny and I get into a lot of deep stuff here. This is an incredibly human conversation, the kind that I love to have. It runs the range of emotions and gets into some raw, really vulnerable stuff. There’s trauma and tears and I’ll warn you that there’s talk of violence and suicidal ideation, but there’s also humor and laughter and there’s wild stories of mischief with his brothers. And there are some chickens named Chicki Minaj and Cardi Bird. Listen in for the whole ride and I think you’ll feel it all. Like I said, I love these conversations because it’s thought and soul provoking. Good stuff.
Johnny was a 4 foot 11, 80-pound freshman at Columbine High School. He was in school on April 20, 1999, a date that you might not remember, but. But I’m betting you do remember what happened on that day at that school.
In my mind, that was the school shooting that made school shootings a thing, a form of senseless mass violence that continues to haunt us and our school aged kids these 26 years later.
Johnny and I talk about that day. We talk about what his experience of it was in some detail and the many years of survivor’s guilt and shame that he has carried because of it. We talk about the aftermath of that experience and about Johnny eventually finding his way to positive therapy experiences that have led him to a place of love, forgiveness and joy in his life. And that isn’t all related to the Columbine shooting. There’s much more to Johnny’s story, which in my view is an extraordinary one of resilience, humor and heart. The We Are Chaffee Podcast is supported by Chaffee County Public Health. All things We Are Chaffee podcast are available 24/7 at wearechaffeepod.com.
Okay, here is Johnny Buschmann.
[transition music, guitar instrumental]
[00:02:54] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, I was diagnosed with ADHD in like third or second grade. So I’ve had it. I always joke. I was like, I had it before it was like a fun one. Like it wasn’t like cool and fun to have adhd. It was like I had to go home with all these like little notepads, like binders essentially like, oh, this kid, like falls asleep in class, can’t focus, but then is like super wild or you know, basically like had. And then they. I got started getting medicated in second grade.
[00:03:23] Adam Williams: How long did that last?
[00:03:25] Johnny Buschmann: The medication?
[00:03:25] Adam Williams: Yeah, like how long did you take it? And what are the. What are the influences of it in your life now?
[00:03:31] Johnny Buschmann: I started taking Ritalin as in second grade and. And then it helped, but I would. I had no appetite, so I lost a bunch of weight and I’m already pretty thin anyways. So then I got off of it and then I’ve been off and on Adderall, kind of like not forced by any means, but it’s not something I like to take. So I still take it to this day.
[00:03:54] Adam Williams: So what you just said before I hit record is that I’m going to watch you drink two Red Bulls and calm down. Calmer. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s how we got started here. Let’s jump in. Where?
Maybe a spot that is good place to be before we get into some of the bigger heavier stuff that I know lies ahead.
[00:04:14] Johnny Buschmann: Okay.
[00:04:15] Adam Williams: The VW thing.
[00:04:16] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:04:17] Adam Williams: All right. You own a shop. Urabus. That’s Subaru backwards, Right.
I’m curious about when you got into that how like, what is the deal with what seems like an awful lot of VW love. And by the way, I have a 75 white over blue camper top type 2 Volkswagen, you know, van.
[00:04:37] Johnny Buschmann: You’re part of the family.
[00:04:39] Adam Williams: Yeah. Yeah. But I haven’t had it to your shop yet. I just figured one of these days it’s inevitable.
[00:04:42] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. So started, let’s see, I was a river guide at river runners in 2007 is when my training year and ended up getting a van that the following year, 74 bus and lived out of that, you know, for the rafting season and kind of just fell in love. And I was a mechanic before that and. And then in 2013 I started my shop in Denver.
I’m bouncing around.
[00:05:14] Adam Williams: No, it’s all good.
[00:05:15] Johnny Buschmann: Okay. So in essentially in 2011 or 2010. Ish. I worked up at Climax for a couple years and saved a bunch of money, started the shop in Denver and then I moved the shop from Denver to buena Vista in 2018.
[00:05:36] Adam Williams: I was going to ask, why did you make that move?
What brought you out here to. I mean, you’re not just moving life, you’re moving business, kind of starting new, maybe.
[00:05:47] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:05:48] Adam Williams: And I can’t even imagine all the stuff when I look at your shop now. How many. How many Volkswagens do you have sitting around? I mean, it’s a lot. So I’m picturing, oh, you’re trying to move all these vehicles. What lifts? I can’t even imagine how much you had to do to make that possible.
[00:06:02] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, it was. It was a lot of work. I had some help, and I had a bunch of friends help me move, which was fantastic, because I don’t think I could have done it by myself. But, yeah, moving. Moving was definitely. It was.
It was kind of for lifestyle change. Like, I’m not a city person. I don’t enjoy things in the city. I’m not like someone that goes to bars or nightclubs or takes advantage of stuff in the city, so. And I kept being drawn back to. Back to the mountains. And then Buena Vista just really tugged on my heartstrings my whole life, you know, since we were little kids, we’d come camping out here, and we. Actually, the shop was for sale for two years, and I remember looking at it, you know, a year and a half prior, and I was like, oh, my gosh, that’d be fantastic. It’s beautiful. It’s, like, exactly what I wanted, but I couldn’t afford it. And I was like, this is too far out of reach. And then I. One night, I just, like, kind of popped online again and saw it for sale, and I was like, I should really try for this. And ended up working out.
[00:07:01] Adam Williams: Seriously, how many vehicles do you have around there right now?
[00:07:03] Johnny Buschmann: Oh, my goodness.
[00:07:04] Adam Williams: Parked all outside of it.
[00:07:06] Johnny Buschmann: I own two vans the business owns. There’s probably.
There’s vans that are there for restoration, and there’s parts vans, but there’s probably 40 Volkswagen vans, total customers and parts.
[00:07:21] Adam Williams: I was gonna ask how many are there that are running right versus parts versus they’re just sitting there. And you’re not gonna move them?
[00:07:30] Johnny Buschmann: Yep.
[00:07:30] Adam Williams: Not without a lot of effort, anyway.
[00:07:32] Johnny Buschmann: Well, there’s one of them that’s a garden, so that one will never move.
But there’s. There’s about 10 or there’s. I think there’s eight total that are just for parts that we. We, like, pull everything off of it and then. And then recycle it, and then a bunch of them are our customers. That are future restorations. And then people buy the shells and we’ll restore the shells for them to basically however they want.
[00:07:59] Adam Williams: That’s what I could use on mine. I think I could use some rust repair. I could use probably a lot of help.
[00:08:05] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. But I know a guy.
[00:08:08] Adam Williams: Yeah, that’s. Yeah, I’ve. You know, when we were going to move out here for Aminatou Springs, this was four years ago now. And the fact that you were here was kind of a bonus spot on the list of awesome things about moving out here because that was so unexpected. When we lived in Manitou, I only knew of one mechanic that in this whole Springs area that worked on vws. So the odds of having you sitting right here in our town was just, to me, such a stroke of luck.
[00:08:37] Johnny Buschmann: Dang. Warming my heart.
[00:08:40] Adam Williams: You grew up in Littleton, huh? So you were in. I mean, I guess that’s a suburb, but you’re in an urban environment compared to rural mountain. You mentioned coming out here to camp. What was it like growing up in Littleton?
[00:08:52] Johnny Buschmann: I mean, it was a nice place. You know, it’s kind of like right off the foothills. There was five kids in the family, so a bunch of us. And always had tons of friends around. And really we spent just a ton of time in the garage. It’s. We were always building stuff. So it’s like even though we were in a suburb, we’d be like playing with go karts and mini bikes and making potato cannons and paintball guns and kind of just. And then. And then if we weren’t doing that, we were out on the. We would raft in the creek behind the it flood, and we would raft the creek, or we would be sleeping outside just like pitching tents. We pretended like we were in the mountains.
[00:09:33] Adam Williams: I had a college roommate who made potato guns. And those things can have some force. We could have gotten in some real trouble with that.
[00:09:42] Johnny Buschmann: I singed my eyelashes together making one using propane. We thought it was a great idea. We’re like, this is totally gonna work.
[00:09:50] Adam Williams: How old were you?
[00:09:51] Johnny Buschmann: I don’t know, 14 or 15. Old enough to know that I probably shouldn’t be using propane as like a accelerant for a. To fire a potato. But I was like, oh, it’s not sparking. So I looked down the back side the chamber and sparked it. And the flame just like covered my face and sealed my eyes together. And I just remember my brothers were crap. We were all laughing. We were scared, of course, but then laughing too, because I was like, I can’t open my eyes.
[00:10:19] Adam Williams: Were they older than you?
[00:10:21] Johnny Buschmann: My older brother Josh. So there’s one older such Josh. There’s a. We’re all Jays. So Josh is older than me. Johnny, then Joel, Jeremy, Jamie. So Jamie’s my. The youngest sister. My mom was trying until she got a girl. Just took five times.
[00:10:40] Adam Williams: Was your dad involved? Was he part of showing you how to work in the garage and build things and. Or is it just you and your brothers figuring it out somehow? This was almost pre Internet. I mean, you’re.
[00:10:51] Johnny Buschmann: You’re.
[00:10:51] Adam Williams: You’re getting it. It certainly isn’t the Internet that we have now where you could find. I mean, my kids can find anything on YouTube or TikTok and learn something.
[00:11:00] Johnny Buschmann: It. It was pre Internet in the way that my mom didn’t want to have Internet with four boys. Four mono boys around. So. So we. We weren’t really allowed to use the computer that often, and we learned. Oh, gosh. So the reason the garage is actually, my dad was a little bit abusive, and the garage was a safe place. So the garage was a place that we could go and be safe because there’s, like, thin walls and. And it was, like, secluded. So that’s kind of why we congregated to the garage.
[00:11:34] Adam Williams: Okay. I mean, it’s not like you didn’t know that’s where you would go. So how was that a safe place from him if he was.
[00:11:40] Johnny Buschmann: You could have the door open. The neighbors would see. It’s like, you know, it’s hard. Hard to be okay. Yeah. Just like, out in the open.
[00:11:49] Adam Williams: Yeah. I was thinking you have described your childhood as tumultuous, and yet what you’re also describing is a lot of fun, and then the camping and the floating on the creek and the things that sound like such a great childhood.
[00:12:01] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:12:01] Adam Williams: So what was that mix, then? What is the tumult of that with this idyllic joy of childhood?
[00:12:08] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
You know how you talk to someone, like, if they’re, like, in a toxic relationship or they’ve got, like, some, like. I don’t know, they, like, if something’s, like, really hard, they’re like, yeah, but there’s all these great things, too. And, like, you know, they. They made me dinner or they did this or they did that. And. And it’s essentially like, you just maybe, like, sugarcoat things to make excuses to, like, find the light and to not just focus on, like, hard stuff. So there was a lot of great things, though. And. And like, my dad had his. He had his own problems, like, like all of Us. I give him grace.
[00:12:47] Adam Williams: And you do at this point. And the reason I say that is I. Okay, we’re. We’re not going to skip your whole story here, but this. If we jump ahead for a moment.
[00:12:58] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:12:59] Adam Williams: You shared something publicly a few months ago about the past year and some pretty significant things that happened in your life then. And one of them was that you met with your dad, I think, at a restaurant and sort of made amends, or at least you were able to see him now in his older age and see that he has had his own internal struggles and you have been able to find that grace from you to him. Maybe forgiveness, I don’t know if that’s going too far or a word you use, but I don’t know that it was always that way. Right. There had to have been probably a long time of struggle for you to get to that place of where you can hug him and say, man, I see him for who he is and it’s okay now.
[00:13:44] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. Yeah. Forgiveness is the right word. And it took me a long time to get to that. So with my dad. And I don’t want any of this to be like a bash fest. Like, I, I don’t, I don’t harbor any bad feelings toward, towards him or towards anyone. You know, forgiveness is something that, like, I’ve really strived for in life and like, I’ve had my mistakes and my flaws and— But so my dad, when I was— There was a time I was, I asked my dad, I was like, why do you hate me so much? And he’s like, I’ve hated you since you were three because you wouldn’t let me mix your food. And. And it hit me, I was like, wait, since I was 3? That seems so odd. Like a 3 year old, of course, doesn’t mix his food. I still don’t mix my food, but that’s my own deal.
[00:14:39] Adam Williams: I generally don’t either.
[00:14:40] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, I don’t like when my food touches. Like, I’ll eat a burrito and I’ll enjoy it, but sometimes I’ll be like, this is too mixed for a burrito. But yeah, and that was like a really. That was a really hard conversation to have. Like, and I think I was 25 when I had it. And I remember I was in a relationship and the, the girl I was with was like, oh, my gosh. Like, your dad admitted that he’s hated you since you were three. This was like, like, what is wrong? And I was like, oh, no, that’s normal. Like, dads, dads don’t like, their kids, like, is like, what I thought. I thought, like, dads are just angry, and it just seemed normal to me. I was like, oh, no. I was just asking him, like, why he hates me. I wasn’t questioning the hatred. And I think that the hatred was like, what opened her eyes. And I was like, yeah, I guess that is kind of odd. Like, let me.
[00:15:34] Adam Williams: And her pointing that out to you then starts to open your eyes to be like, wait a second. Somebody out there. At least this person has a different experience.
[00:15:42] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, totally.
[00:15:43] Adam Williams: How many other people have different experiences? Do you start to reevaluate at that point what it means to be maybe a father, to be a. You know, I don’t know, a mentor, a leader in your family or life or whatever, however you might look at that?
[00:15:57] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. To be a man. I mean, I thought I struggled with men for a long time. Yeah, it was like when someone’s 40, which is my age currently, but when someone was 40, I would see them and I would be like, they’re dangerous. Stay away from them. Like, not a safe person. And so I always– That’s something I had to work through, because as my friends started to get towards 40, I was like, oh, I hate that person. And it was like, I was like, I’m scared of them. I have to, like. And I would, like, kind of sweat. And I was like, gosh, what is this feeling? Like, this is my buddy. But I guess going back to, like, the forgiveness part, like, I think realizing that my dad.
My dad had that. That hatred of me since I was a kid, I think. I don’t know, it was, like, something that I had to work through at that point because I was like, I know it’s not me. Like, you can be upset at someone because they don’t mix their food and be like, oh, this is annoying that I can’t do this. But there was. There was one time I was moving out with my little brother, so he choked out my little brother, Jeremy, and, like, just like. I don’t know, like. Like Jeff choked him out across the table, and I pulled him off. I got on my dad’s back and choked him out.
Gosh, it sounds ridiculous. I know. And me and Jeremy, I was like, you’re moving in with me. And he lived on a couch that we moved into my bedroom at this house I was renting. And we were out in the front yard, and I had a hammer in my hand, and my dad was telling me what a piece of shit I was and how he’s Always hated me. And I’m not his son. And. And I just remember being like, am I gonna swing on my dad, like, with a hammer? Like, in my head, I was like, what do I do? Like, I was like, toe to toe with my dad, and I can’t remember how it actually ended. I think I just. Like, I didn’t stand down. He didn’t stand down. And then eventually we just both walked away. And he’s like, “Fuck it. Take everything.” Like, take whatever you want. And I was just grabbing my tools, like, from the garage, and I still have the hammer. Sometimes I look at it, I’m like, that thing has, like, weird juju to it, like, the fact that I held it like that. But I was like. I was like, I’m sticking up for my brother. I was like, sticking up for myself.
[00:18:12] Adam Williams: Have you thought about getting rid of the hammer? Is it a bad thing whenever you see it?
[00:18:16] Johnny Buschmann: No, not really. It’s not a bad thing. It’s just like, I’m like, holy cow. Like, how that’s not love. Like, in a family. That’s not what a father should do. Should never come to that. It shouldn’t come to the point of, like, someone wanting to. I don’t. Yeah. But it should never come to that kind of violence. And I think it’s, like, a good reminder for me because I’m like, I don’t want that in my life. Like, I want to show love. I want to show grace. I want to be like, oh, like, this person doesn’t mix their food. It’s not about mixing their food. It’s just a funny thing that someone doesn’t like. But if. If this person doesn’t do something the way that I like, I’m like, oh, totally fine. That’s great. You like yellow cars. Fantastic. I don’t like yellow cars, but I still love you as a human. And I just won’t like your yellow car.
[00:19:06] Adam Williams: There obviously was more to it than that, which I know you know at this point, because to say I’ve hated you since.
What, you mean 37 years because of that? Well, it’s obviously not just because of that.
[00:19:19] Johnny Buschmann: Totally.
[00:19:20] Adam Williams: So you had this sense of broken trust for men, it sounds like, in particular, I know there were some. Some other challenges in your life with other men in the family and things like that. So you. You had significant cause for this, some challenges. Again, like I said, there’s this tumultuous piece of your life, but also these amazing things. And you had these brothers, and it sounds like you had great relationships. With them.
[00:19:45] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:19:46] Adam Williams: That’s great. You had a sister that I think you told me before you lost, right?
[00:19:52] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. So my mom was pregnant, and, like, the. I was in sixth grade. This is, like, the first loss I ever felt. But I was in sixth grade, and they’re like, cool, we’re gonna go in for delivery. And, like, my mom was getting ready for it that morning. She’s like, something feels weird. And she died, like, during the delivery or, like, right before, something like that. But it was like, the baby did. The baby did, yeah. Not my mom. Jan’s still alive. But, yeah, the baby did. And it was Jenna was her name. And that was really hard because I was like, wait. It was so weird to just feel, I think, to, like, feel like, a loss of life, like, at that age, like, sixth grade feels.
I look at a sixth grader now, I’m like, oh, wow. Like, you’re a little kid. Like, just to feel, like, losing something that felt so tangible.
[00:20:39] Adam Williams: Because you were probably 11 or so at that time. 11, 12.
[00:20:43] Johnny Buschmann: 11.
[00:20:44] Adam Williams: But you have how many brothers?
[00:20:46] Johnny Buschmann: There’s four brothers total, counting you, so. Oh, yeah, sorry. There’s four boys in the family, so.
[00:20:51] Adam Williams: I have three brothers and a sister.
[00:20:53] Johnny Buschmann: And a sister.
[00:20:53] Adam Williams: Okay. And then you lost this one, and this is your first experience of loss, and you’re in sixth grade.
[00:20:57] Johnny Buschmann: Yep.
[00:20:59] Adam Williams: So you’re going through a lot of things. We’ve already kind of hit on some big things in your life.
[00:21:03] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:21:04] Adam Williams: Do you feel like, from the neighborhood you described, this feels like a weird question.
[00:21:09] Johnny Buschmann: Go ahead. I’m here for the weird ones.
[00:21:11] Adam Williams: Does it fit your life that things weren’t going well? Meaning were people around you? Did you see neighbors and kids and friends, and everybody was struggling with violence from their family or whatever their issues might have been? Or did you feel like you were in this sort of idyllic suburb where everything was pretty and beautiful and amazing for everyone else, and then somehow you were dealing with these emotions in the house that were so negative and impactful.
[00:21:41] Johnny Buschmann: Obviously, on the outside, it’s like, everything looked perfect, and everyone has their own struggles on the inside, but on the outside, I mean, it’s like white picket fence neighborhood. Like, everything was, like, new and super nice, and it was really pretty. But our family was the one that. They’re like, you can’t go hang out with the Buschmanns. The Buschmann boys are wild. They’re too much. We were a lot. Like, if I. Looking back, I’m like, I understand my dad’s frustrations. When I look back and see all the things we were doing. My brother Joel in high school, he had like this old square body Chevy truck and he takes my mom’s couch. I guess we all took my mom’s couch. It was like her nice couch out. And we towed it around the neighborhood behind the truck. And like we were just like, with like a strap on it, essentially like a sled behind the truck, riding it, riding it and we were shooting sparks everywhere. And then he put the couch on the end and came down the hill at like 60 miles an hour, 45 miles an hour or something and hit the couch and it blew into pieces. And my mom was livid, so was my dad. So like we weren’t perfect kids.
[00:22:52] Adam Williams: Was this the family’s couch, like the main couch sitting in the living room or wherever?
[00:22:57] Johnny Buschmann: It wasn’t the main couch. This was like the couch that was in the nice part. I don’t know why my brother did it. He was, it was. I don’t know why we did it. It’s not just my brother. Like, we were all part of this. Yeah, it was, it was the nice couch. It was like, this is like during the time that like Jackass and Bam.
[00:23:16] Adam Williams: Margera was like Johnny Knoxville.
[00:23:18] Johnny Buschmann: And Johnny Knoxville. And I think, I think we got like a wild hair up our butt and we’re like, we’re funny, we’ll do this. And I think that like kind of.
[00:23:27] Adam Williams: How old were you then?
[00:23:29] Johnny Buschmann: Old enough to know better.
[00:23:30] Adam Williams: Well, here’s what I’m getting at is you’ve got a range of ages with four boys that are clearly close enough.
[00:23:34] Johnny Buschmann: I was probably 22, maybe 21.
[00:23:37] Adam Williams: Because I’m wondering if your brother was like, oh, he was driving at 12, you know.
[00:23:41] Johnny Buschmann: No, he was, he just, he was 16.
[00:23:43] Adam Williams: You were 22 and doing it maybe 20.
[00:23:45] Johnny Buschmann: Wow.
[00:23:46] Adam Williams: Were you out of the house by then?
[00:23:47] Johnny Buschmann: 22? Yeah, I was, I was, I was out. And then I moved back in after my, my parents got separated and then I moved back in to help with the family because my mom worked nights. So it’s just my mom. And then I moved. I quit school and then college. Uh huh. And then I. And then I moved back to help just like shuttle kids back and forth to school and to help pay bills.
[00:24:13] Adam Williams: Your dad left after the loss of your sister, right?
[00:24:17] Johnny Buschmann: He. No, he didn’t leave then he left. He was planning to leave then and.
[00:24:23] Adam Williams: That was just a known thing in the family.
[00:24:25] Johnny Buschmann: Uh huh. That’s. Yeah. And then he left when he choked out my other brother Josh. And then my mom kicked him out. My mom was like, this is ridiculous.
[00:24:39] Adam Williams: I’ve been wondering, what was her reaction to all of these things?
[00:24:42] Johnny Buschmann: I mean.
[00:24:42] Adam Williams: Cause this is years of witnessing and feeling the vibes of all of that.
[00:24:48] Johnny Buschmann: And, yeah, my mom’s a fantastic lady. She’s so loving. And my mom gives grace to everyone. She’s just. She’s a ball of joy. She worked nights, and my dad worked days, so, like, she never knew the stuff that was going on. She had no idea.
[00:25:07] Adam Williams: Okay.
[00:25:08] Johnny Buschmann: And growing up, we would never say anything because, yeah, we just wouldn’t say anything because we’re like, oh, you guys are on the same team. Like, there’s no reason to. Like, if I say something to my mom, she’s gonna tell my dad.
[00:25:20] Adam Williams: You thought she might protect him?
[00:25:22] Johnny Buschmann: Oh, 100%.
[00:25:23] Adam Williams: Yeah.
So we’re talking about. Well, I mean, you guys were wild.
[00:25:29] Johnny Buschmann: We were wild.
[00:25:30] Adam Williams: Oh, no, it was crazy.
Although I’m a little envious of. My older brothers are several years older, so I didn’t have brothers that were close enough in age for me to get into trouble with.
[00:25:40] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:25:40] Adam Williams: Or to play sports with or whatever. And I always had wanted that. And I think that that part of it sounds amazing.
[00:25:45] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:25:45] Adam Williams: But I can see why. I mean, that couch story, that is wild.
Okay, so we’re laying out this childhood, and you’ve gone through some extraordinary things at this point already. When you’re young and when you’re a freshman, you enter high school.
[00:26:04] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:26:05] Adam Williams: Columbine High School.
How did you feel like life was going at that time? The first part of that year, I.
[00:26:10] Johnny Buschmann: Was upset going to Columbine, and this was in 98.
I was upset because I was supposed to go to Chatfield High School, and I was gonna go there with all my, like, punk skater kids and friends. And then we switched schools. I had to switch schools because my brother played football, and he essentially, like, we just were gonna go to the same school regardless. And Columbine had a better football team, so it’s like, oh, we’re gonna go to Columbine. They have a better football team.
[00:26:39] Adam Williams: Was that because of friendship that you were gonna go to the same high school, or was it because of logistics with your family?
[00:26:44] Johnny Buschmann: No, logistics. Yeah. I was the twerp brother. My. My older brother, he’s, like, a big, strong dude, and I was like this little squirt of a kid. Like, I went into high school at 4 foot 11, maybe 80 pounds. I was too small to wrestle. I went to join the wrestling team, and they’re, like, the lightest weight class was 98. 98 pounds. And I weighed 79. And the coach was like, you gotta put some weight on. I was like, I can’t. I can’t grow. You know, whatever. So I wrestled the following year.
[00:27:18] Adam Williams: You go in as a freshman at Columbine, you said 98?
[00:27:21] Johnny Buschmann: Yep.
[00:27:23] Adam Williams: Did you have friends there? Did you enjoy school? You know, that early part of the year when you’re starting, you’re a freshman. Maybe it’s exciting, as long as you’re avoiding seniors who want to pick on you or whatever. Like, were there positives to school in general, setting aside, whether it was Chatfield or Columbine?
[00:27:38] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, it wasn’t. It’s like, anytime you go into, like, a new environment, it’s. It’s always difficult to crack in.
Short answer. I had two major. I had a couple of friends, but not too many. I was. Since I was new and I was really small, I think that that didn’t help the situation because people be like, are you really smart? I’m like, no, definitely not.
And then, you know, thinking that I was like, put ahead or something.
[00:28:05] Adam Williams: Yeah. Thinking you’re really. You’re in the wrong school. You should be in middle school.
[00:28:07] Johnny Buschmann: Totally. Yeah. Everyone’s like, elementary school. Like, you should. You shouldn’t here. And then the. The funny part is my brother was one of the. The larger kids in school. Like, he was. He. He was bigger than all the teachers.
[00:28:19] Adam Williams: Did he protect you at all?
[00:28:21] Johnny Buschmann: He would. He was a silent protector, though. Like, he. Yeah, he. He would protect me just like a brother would, where it’s like, you can’t beat him up, but I can. You know, that kind of stuff. Like, I. Which was nice. It was like, yeah, he’s a good dude. But, yeah, so. So definitely not too many friends. Like, just kind of like being like, where do I fit in in this school? Like. Like, I didn’t play any sport. I wanted to wrestle, but I was, like, too small to wrestle. And then I was. The other sports just weren’t my thing because I played hockey at the time, and I was like, oh, there’s no hockey team.
[00:28:54] Adam Williams: And so pretty small on the ice.
[00:28:57] Johnny Buschmann: I was a goalie, so it didn’t really matter.
[00:28:59] Adam Williams: Okay.
[00:28:59] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. Because you put all those pads on. Makes you look a little thicker. Thicker than a snicker.
[00:29:03] Adam Williams: Well. And. And you have to. If you’re very tall at all, you have to be able to kind of crouch down and fill that space in front of the net. Right. So for you to already be that small, I don’t know. Is that helpful?
[00:29:14] Johnny Buschmann: It. It was perfect. And I. And I could do the splits all three ways at the time. I can’t do that now.
But, yeah, I like. I loved. I loved hockey. It was like my life.
[00:29:26] Adam Williams: So what we’re coming to here.
I don’t know a more delicate way to bring this up. You already know where we’re headed.
That later in that year, when you come to spring, you’re most of the way through your freshman year.
And on April 20, there’s this infamous event in our history. Now, as we look, we’re at 26 years since this happened. The Columbine school shooting, where two kids that I’m not going to name walked in and did what they did, and you were there.
You’re the only person I’ve met who has experienced that.
I want you to lead us here because I could only try to guess at the things that you’re working with even 26 years later, what that experience felt like.
I want you to share what you feel comfortable sharing from the experience of being a freshman in high school for this event.
[00:30:32] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. So I think before I Tarantino my story, I think before I even start, I think I’ve always struggled telling my story for a couple reasons. Like, one of them is I can’t remember it that well.
Like, it’s. I don’t know, it’s just, like, things, like black out, and it’s like I can. I can, like, walk through it verbally, but, like, visually, it’s, like, hard to see, like, you kind of just, like. I don’t know, things just, like, disappear in your memory.
[00:31:04] Adam Williams: Well, I imagine that’s related to the trauma of it.
[00:31:07] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. And then the other thing is, like, my story was never that bad is how I felt. I was like, oh, it’s not bad, so it’s, like, not worth telling or. It’s like I had. I did lose friends, and I did have friends that were shot, and I had a ton of friends who are in worse places. So I just never felt like my story is viable to even say or to even bring out, because I was like, oh, you should hear this person’s like, they’ve. They went through so much more. They had so much more. So I think I. I think from the shooting, like, I have. I’ve held a lot of shame, like, for a lot of my life just dealing with it and then also not dealing with it at the same time.
[00:31:50] Adam Williams: Shame because you feel like your story didn’t matter enough. You shouldn’t feel whatever you feel.
[00:31:58] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. There’s shame of, there’s survivor’s guilt where it’s like, I should have been in a worse place. I should have been like, I should have been shot, like, and holding that for a long time just. It feels odd because, like, maybe on the outside you wouldn’t assume that you would want to be shot. And I don’t think it’s that I wanted to be. I think it’s just like, you just feel guilty for making it out when other people didn’t and they did not.
[00:32:27] Adam Williams: Deserve to be shot. And so it might as well have been you.
[00:32:31] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I should have. I should have been that. And as I’m saying, I sound like Lieutenant Dan, but I think that, yeah, that, like, shame, like, I carried it for a really long time without knowing it.
[00:32:48] Adam Williams: Do you remember hearing shots? Do you remember being aware that this was happening at the time? Or were you in a safer place in school so you weren’t necessarily close to that danger?
[00:32:59] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, so we were. I was in math class and all of a sudden it’s like we kind of heard screaming down the halls. And this is April, the. I think the week, the weekend before was prom.
And so I honestly thought it was like screaming from greased pigs because I always heard about pranks. I love pranks. Practical jokes. Like, my favorite thing. So I thought someone was laying, letting grease pigs through the hallway. And then people were screaming because they can’t catch the pigs. Or it’s the pig screaming because it’s like the high, like, it was like high pitched scream. And I got excited. I was like, oh my gosh. This is the practical jokes you hear about on TV and on movies. Like, this is so fun. Like, this is what high school is. And then slowly the screams got a little bit more aggressive and a little more.
It’s like cries for help. And it was like blood curdling. And it was like hitting like a really high pitch. And I was like, that. No one would scream like that for a pig. Like, that’s odd. And my teacher, my teacher was like, settle down, class. Like, just ignore it. And then we started to hear the gunshots and it was like, just like the quick, like from like the tech nines. And then we would hear like the bombs going off because they had pipe bombs. And we’re like, all right, like, that’s not normal. And like. And then we had a student teacher, they walked out and was like, hold on, like, we’re gonna go check on this. We go see what. What’s going on. And then everyone’s dead. Silent now. We’re all just like staring at each other. And mind you, at the time, I’m 14, so it’s like, you know, like, it’s like a 14 year old. Like you see, I see a 14 year old now and I’m like, oh, you’re a child.
So teacher went out and we sit there in silence while we just hear gunshots, screaming and bombs and everything’s getting closer. And then the student teacher runs back in, is like, everybody get against the wall. Like someone has a gun. And so we all, we like get against the wall, we start like moving desks around and to like hide from the window.
And then, and then like were sitting there like as just silent. And it, I don’t know how much time has gone by like in this because it just like, I don’t like time doesn’t make sense, you know, at that moment and the screams got quieter, it was like we would hear like the main group has passed. And then it was like just echoes of gunshots. And then you would still hear screams. Like, like people were still screaming, of course, but it wasn’t like the stampede of everyone running down the hallway. And as we sat there then we start putting desks against the door. Like what do we do? Like, you know, are we, are we trapped? And, and then there’s a teacher that runs up and he bangs on the door as loud as he can and it’s scared. I remember being so scared of that just because like that like, like just dropping, like that feeling of dropping in your chest. And he’s like, they’re down the hall. Go, go, go. This is like our time. And so like we, we all like run out of the classroom and as we’re running down the hallway, you just hear bullets like going down the hallway, hitting lockers. You can hear like the blasts of like bombs. Like everything is so evident and it’s just like that hollow sound of like, like a gunshot in a hallway. It’s so loud and like as we’re running it’s like friends have like blood all over them or people have blood all over them, whether it’s their own or other people’s. And then we bust out the, the, the back door and as we’re crossing the street, cars aren’t stopping and there’s just like a line of kids just like everyone’s like freaked out and screaming and like cars are honking at us. They’re like, get the fuck out of here. Like, like I just remember, sorry, I don’t mean to cuss, but that’s what they said. And they’re like. They’re like, scream. Screaming. Of course it makes sense. Like, if you’re kids run out in the road, you’re like, bunch of idiots. But then I remember, like, hitting a car hood, like, as it, like, came skidding towards me. And I was so mad. I was like. I was like, they’re. They’re gonna regret this. Like, they’re gonna. They’re gonna look back and be like, I. I wish I did something. I wish, like, I was like, yo, you guys. Are you guys okay? Like, can I help you? And instead, they’re. They’re just upset that they were three minutes late to get their Einstein bagel because it had to not hit a kid.
And then we scattered to, like. We got to, like, the park across the street, and we kind of, like, hung out there for a minute and, like, talked to people were like, what’s going on? Like. Like they had. There wasn’t paramedics yet or anything like that, but there was, like, friends that. They were, like, covered in. Covered in blood, and, you know, like, what do we do? And all of a sudden, it was, like, gunshots. It sounded like gunshots went outside. And then the. And then cops were like, run, everyone run. And then. So we booked it into the neighborhoods, and I got lost in the neighborhood. I was just like. I remember I was like. I was, like, crying and just, like, running at the same time. Like, I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t even know where I’m going. Like, had no idea.
[00:38:28] Adam Williams: Were you alone?
[00:38:29] Johnny Buschmann: I was. I ended up finding.
I met up with a couple friends that I recognized, and. And we.
We got in the back of, like, their mom’s Jeep, and there was, like. We were in, like, the flat, like, in, like, the. Where the spare tire is in a Jeep. And just there was, like, I don’t know, maybe eight of us in that thing. And they brought us to, like, a local church to call people. And, like, none of us had cell phones, or at least I didn’t have a cell phone. And we, like, called our parents. Our parents are working. So I was like, there. I was like, I don’t know what to do now. Like. Like, I don’t have any contact of, like, my parents. And then I eventually somehow found my mom.
[00:39:13] Adam Williams: I don’t.
[00:39:14] Johnny Buschmann: It. It’s a blur. Like, somehow. Somehow she.
Somehow she came and got us.
And my brother was.
He was in, like, someone’s basement.
And we didn’t know where he was either, because there was just no phones and like my. I don’t think my mom even had a cell phone at the time.
[00:39:34] Adam Williams: Were you worried about your brother throughout this?
[00:39:37] Johnny Buschmann: I was so worried, yeah. Yeah. Cuz I was like, I was like, where is he? Like, I don’t. I was like, I was like, I have like this like group of people that I was really close with and I was like, yeah, I was really worried about him.
[00:39:51] Adam Williams: Have the two of you ever talked about this day?
[00:39:55] Johnny Buschmann: Ah, maybe a little bit, but not really because like we both, I guess like we kind of grew up to where it’s like you don’t talk, you know, like you don’t like talk about stuff. Not that you don’t talk about stuff, but it’s like not something that like you bring up. Like you’re like, you just like kind of bury stuff and like deal with it on your own and move on.
[00:40:21] Adam Williams: Try to leave it back there.
[00:40:22] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, yeah. Don’t, don’t like keep resurfacing as two.
[00:40:26] Adam Williams: People in your family who have their own experiences of this shared very significant experience in your lives and the rest of the people in your family weren’t there.
I wonder about the impact of that on the two of you and maybe in terms of relationship with the others. Did anybody try to talk with you about it?
And I want to I guess put this in probably this context in my mind.
I don’t know if this was actually the first school shooting or if it’s the first one lodged so clearly in the psyches of everyone in our country.
It’s the one I think of as the first one. And you in your description there are saying teachers are naively thinking, let me go see what this noise is. It did not enter your mind as a student. It’s squealing pigs in the school.
[00:41:20] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:41:21] Adam Williams: My sons, now, 26 years later, I promise they will first think of guns.
[00:41:28] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:41:28] Adam Williams: Because it has become so commonplace.
I guess I’m wondering how you know, man, you were part of that unfortunately, seminal experience in this country of something so horrific and, and at such a tender age. And then we look at where we are now in that road.
I’m really mixing together a lot of thoughts here as I think we both process what we’re doing.
So sorry, I have us all over the place.
[00:41:59] Johnny Buschmann: That’s okay. Me too.
[00:42:03] Adam Williams: Let’s step back to, I guess, the aftermath and whether was there care for you, did anyone, whether it was family, whether it was professionals through the school, did anyone at any point try to help you and the other students in processing and Dealing with the trauma of this experience.
[00:42:23] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
The next day, after call mine. So April 21st, I got up, I brushed my teeth, I took a shower, and I was eating my cereal. Like, I woke up and I was like, that was a shitty dream. Like, I gotta get to school. I’m gonna be late. I’ve got first period and my dad comes down and he drops. He, like, drops a newspaper, like, in front of me while I’m eating cereal. And my buddy Danny Robaugh’s on the COVID just dead on the concrete. And I remember he just dropped it there and was like, looks like your friend died and just, like, walked away. It wasn’t like, oh, my God, like, I’m so glad you made it or something like that. It was just like. It’s like, here’s this information. Here’s also this visual of, like, someone I know and I was in class with that day and just their dentals. I didn’t. I remember breaking down and I, like, didn’t know how to process at that moment.
And then it swirled. I was like, oh, my God, it wasn’t a dream. All of this happened. Like, this wasn’t fake. And then I turned the news on and it was just like a swirl of, like, Columbine High School shooters. This many dead, this many injured. And then I went through. And I was like. I was like, what. What. What do I do? Like, how do I go to school? How do I contact these people? It was before social media and before really cell phones, and I didn’t have anyone’s numbers.
[00:43:59] Adam Williams: How do you contact who?
[00:44:00] Johnny Buschmann: Any of my friends. And be like, are they alive? Like, are they shot? Are they.
We would just meet each other in class, and when class was over, if we didn’t have their phone numbers, like, we would.
[00:44:12] Adam Williams: School was your center, your social center.
[00:44:16] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:44:17] Adam Williams: And that was just ripped away.
[00:44:18] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:44:20] Adam Williams: In the idea of this being so new, such a new experience, and nobody knows at this point how to deal with that.
[00:44:29] Johnny Buschmann: And they tried. Like, they did therapy.
I liken it to Bunko night. So I remember it was at. It was at Chatfield High School, actually. So. Because the school was like, yo, we’ll open up. Like, you guys can take your night classes here. And like, we kind of split the day. And they had. I don’t know if they’re a therapist or if they were just like, moms. They were coming in on their free time just to, like, talk with kids. But. But I remember the woman I talked to the first time, she was like, “okay, tell me about your experience. Did you see any dead bodies? How much blood did you see? Did you lose any friends? Are you going to any funerals?” And then asked me all those questions, which kind of, like, opened my heart up. And I was like, yeah, I lost, I lost, like, these four friends. And, like, this, like, really hurts and blah, blah, blah.
And then at the end, she was just like, “okay, we’ll see you tomorrow.” And, like, there wasn’t any, like, sewing back together. There wasn’t any, like, restoration or repair. It was just, tell me the gore, Tell me the blood. Tell me, like, the. I want to know, like, the intricate, like, grossness of this experience. And then I’m gonna, like, walk away. And, like, then, like, I have to do the next person. And I was like, the first time I was like, that really hurt. And maybe this is part of the process. And then I went again.
I talked to the same lady, and she did the same thing. She’s like, okay, so last time you said that you. These friends died and you lost, and, like, these friends were shot, and, like, just kind of went over again, like, these gory details. And I was like, if this is therapy, I don’t want it. Like, I want to know how do I deal with these feelings of loss, like, these feelings of self worth, too, of being like, I shouldn’t be here. Like, I struggled with that my whole life anyways, before Columbine.
And so then going through a shooting where you survive, and you’re like, I don’t feel like I should have survived. I don’t feel like I should be here anyways.
How do I deal with that? And then.
And then it was like, there was no answer for that. It was just like, come back again. Like, we’ll. I want to hear your story again. I want to hear, like, the gory details. And so after that, I stopped going to therapy because I was like, this stuff’s for the birds. Like, I don’t. I don’t. I don’t need someone. I don’t need to, like, open myself up again to just all the pain. I want to know how to deal with it well.
[00:47:03] Adam Williams: And to have the. The callous nature of– as if it was just a recitation of facts. Yeah, that lack feeling, lack heart, lack humanity. Like they were just filing a report of some kind.
[00:47:17] Johnny Buschmann: Exactly. That’s how it felt, too. It was like. It was like, because we had to do that with the police, and that made sense where they’re like, we just want data. We want to know, like, did you see a bomb? Did you See a gun? Did you see this? Did you see that? And they. They would go through your story and write that stuff down. And that was really uncomfortable because a cop’s just, like, grilling you, like, are you sure? And you’re like, I don’t know. I. Now I’m scared. Now. What do I actually remember? Because there’s. There’s moments where you’re like, did I see this? Do I remember that?
[00:47:47] Adam Williams: Like, sure, yeah.
[00:47:49] Johnny Buschmann: Your mind makes stuff up, especially as you, like, hear stuff and see stuff. It’s like your mind will let you forget things. It’ll also insert things there.
[00:47:57] Adam Williams: Even under the best of circumstances as adults, I think when someone, even if it’s implied, questions how accurate what you’re saying is, you start to immediately think, well, I don’t know. I think maybe my memory is bad. Maybe. Whatever. And, of course, the traumatic experience that you’re talking about, and again, at such a young age, it sounds like there was no adult who actually stepped forward in the way that you needed it to happen.
[00:48:24] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. And I don’t think they knew how, because I don’t think it’s like, before PTSD was, like, given.
[00:48:34] Adam Williams: Yeah.
[00:48:34] Johnny Buschmann: Outside of war, you know, or they’re.
[00:48:36] Adam Williams: Like, yeah, if we allow a little bit of fairness here. Again, nobody had dealt with such a thing. An incident of mass trauma.
[00:48:45] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:48:45] Adam Williams: For. I mean, how big was your school? I mean, probably sizable. Right.
[00:48:49] Johnny Buschmann: Hundred kids.
[00:48:50] Adam Williams: This is an awful lot of kids that have been part of this. And teachers and anybody else on staff.
[00:48:56] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:48:57] Adam Williams: You know, if we think back to you saying, trying to cross the road and people are yelling at you.
[00:49:01] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:49:01] Adam Williams: Angry with you.
[00:49:02] Johnny Buschmann: And that’s now part of their story, though, because now they’re. I’m seeing that as like. And this is where I give grace. Like, I’m seeing that as like, holy shit. Like, this guy almost hit me. Or girl. Whoever it was almost hit me. And they’re seeing it now is like, I drove up right as those kids were crossing. They don’t see it as like, oh, I almost hit those kids and honked at them and yelled at them. They’re like, I can’t believe I actually saw them crossing the road, you know, during that shooting. And that’s traumatic for them, you know, because they’re like. They probably saw kids bloody, like, crossing the street in a very small way.
[00:49:36] Adam Williams: They also are tied to that moment in history.
[00:49:38] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:49:39] Adam Williams: And, you know, that’s an example. You know, as it said that we never know. We need to be kind and gentle with people who are acting Maybe rudely or whatever, at a store or wherever you encounter them, because you never know what they’re carrying, what they’re holding. And in that case, man, such an extreme example. But all these kids coming out, having gone through the biggest experience of their young lives, man, it’s. It’s clearly this. This feeling you have about it all these years later. Yeah, understandable.
Imagine the intensity, you know, if you’re that other person, that driver of what you were going through in that moment and how much you really just needed a small measure of kindness.
[00:50:19] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:50:20] Adam Williams: National media descends on the school, on the town. I mean, that. That also became part of the experience for you as well, I think.
[00:50:31] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, they.
I stopped saying I was from Littleton. I would be like, oh, I’m from Denver. I wouldn’t say I was from Columbine unless someone, like, prodded me and, like, poked me in the side. I’d be like, fine. I went to Columbine High School because it always ended with, were you at the shooting? No matter where I was, it’d be. And I was like, am I ready to talk about this? Like, am I ready to open up to this person? And. And I don’t mind now. Like, I think I’ve. I’ve done a bunch of therapy to be able to talk about it and to be able to look at it with as clear of a mind as I can.
But I think at the time when I was 14, 15, if someone was like, oh, you look high school aged and you are in this town and you’re wearing some. Our school colors were blue and silver, and so I would never wear blue ever. I was like, nope. Wouldn’t wear my wrestling shirts. Wouldn’t wear, like, anything that said call of mine. Because I didn’t want to get approached by someone for them to, like, just want the details. And. And. But there were a lot of kind people that were like, I’ve had. I had people be like, you were at that school, and they would just, like, give me, like, a big hug, and I was like, gosh, this is, like, really sweet. Like, this is really kind.
And then I also had one time we were at TGI Fridays or one of those, like, chain restaurants, and someone bought our meal, and it was so sweet, and it was like. I was like, that’s like, that’s so much kindness. And it wasn’t like, tell me your story. Tell me everything, then I’ll buy your meal. They’re just like, hey, we’re glad you’re here. Like, your bill’s taken care Of. And it’s something small, you know, something small. But it felt so big for us. The movie theaters. I remember going to the movie theater, and then outside there’d be, like, a news van with, like, their tower on top, and I would avoid them.
[00:52:18] Adam Williams: How long did this go on?
[00:52:19] Johnny Buschmann: It was all four years of high school. You did.
[00:52:23] Adam Williams: You did go back there? Yeah, the next year.
[00:52:25] Johnny Buschmann: I wasn’t going to let a shooting beat me. It was like, I was like, screw this now. Like, it was funny because I was like, I didn’t want to be here, like, in the beginning, because I was like, I’d rather go. I’d rather go with my skateboard friends at Chatfield. But then once I was at Calm, I was like, you know what? Like, I’m not letting this shooting define me. I’m not letting this, like, experience stop me from going to school. Like, that’s what. That’s, like, what they wanted. Like, it’s like they wanted fear to be, like, in our hearts. And I was like, I’m not going to. I’m going to stay here. I’m going to be kind. I’m going to, like, keep going to school. And it was hard. It was hard not to run from it, But I was like, I’m going to face. I had class in the room that I was in a couple years down the road. I was like, yeah. So I still. I still, like, faced my traumas. I didn’t run from it. I was like, get back on the bike. I know that I don’t know if that’s the right way to go, but that’s the way I went.
[00:53:21] Adam Williams: I’m going to take us back here a moment to where, you know, that morning after, and you’re having cereal and your dad brings a newspaper and things.
Your brother, you know, even just the next day when you. You see your brother, I mean, was he at the table eating cereal? Was he also trying to process? Was this a dream? I mean, it sounds like it didn’t even come up between the two of you at that. At that moment.
[00:53:45] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, we.
It was interesting how we dealt with things. He was in a much worse place than I was.
Like, he. He got shot at, and he was in the lunchroom, the cafeteria, where it all happened. And, like, he was hiding back in the kitchen. He, like, jumped over.
And so I think our stories are. Because our stories were different. I think I.
I felt bad bringing mine up ever. And it was just like that shame of just like, oh, like, wow.
[00:54:18] Adam Williams: So what you’re talking about with feeling like, your story isn’t. It’s not good enough. Meaning it wasn’t bad enough.
[00:54:23] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:54:24] Adam Williams: Even now you have that, even within your own household, because your brother also was there, and now you feel like, well, his experience was worse, so I don’t deserve to talk about mine.
[00:54:32] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. Yeah. Because it’s. Yeah, it’s that. It’s that shame and that guilt, and that’s.
I don’t know, maybe I’ll let that rule my life for a while. Just, like, having like that, like, oh, it’s not. You’re not enough. Like, your story’s not enough. You’re not enough.
[00:54:49] Adam Williams: At some point, you did return to therapy. You mentioned it a couple moments ago.
[00:54:54] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[00:54:55] Adam Williams: In that process, did you learn that your story also is valid?
[00:54:58] Johnny Buschmann: So I went to a bunch of different therapies. So I’ve struggled. I– oh, gosh, I’ve struggled with suicide my whole life. Since I was six. Six is, like, the first time I, like, remember it. And I think the columbine stuff was bad, of course, but I think, like, just also having that feeling of not being worthy to be alive, like, where you’re like, I shouldn’t be here. Like, it’s like, no matter what I did, it, like, was never enough. And I always just kind of felt worthless. And I think I was 20, so. So two years after. After call, after I graduated, and I was just really depressed, and I was, like, really suicidal. And I.
I told my mom. I told, like, a doctor. I was like, I don’t understand this. Like, and they’re like, oh, we just need to get you on drugs. And so I was like, we need to put you through. Get you into therapy, and we’ll get you on, like, some sort of antidepressant or something. And I remember I was like, okay, like, I would love therapy. I would love to, like, get this out out of me. Like, I don’t want to carry this burden. And they essentially, it was like, you get six sessions, and. And. And on the successions, it was essentially just like a. A therapy. I don’t know. I don’t know if she was a therapist, but whatever she was, she was, like, prescribing the pills, and she’s like, all right, how’s this? How’s your prescription going? How do you feel?
And I just remember being like, I felt like a ghost. I just felt numb. And.
And so that was my second time in therapy with my first time being right after the shooting. And I was like, okay, this is how therapy is. They either want you to talk about the worst parts of it just so they have that information for themselves or they want you to just be a walking zombie. And, and it’s like I was like, screw this. Like, this is stupid. Like they just want me to be walking around like I have a cloud in my head all the time. Like, oh, you can’t sleep now because like you’re on these antidepressants. You also can’t wake up because you’re on these antidepressants. I was like, this is stupid. So I took him for a year to like try to level out or try to work on stuff and nothing. It, none of that ever helped. It just made me like a zombie. And then I quit them immediately. I was like, this is stupid. Like I’m not taking these anymore. Which you’re not supposed to. You’re supposed to like teeter off. And then I went, I don’t know, maybe like five more years, had another mental breakdown because of the shooting and because of like my own mental struggles and went to therapy again. And that was like the first time that the therapist actually walked through stuff.
[00:57:45] Adam Williams: And what do you mean by that?
[00:57:47] Johnny Buschmann: She was like, let’s talk about like, like tell me your, like not just like, tell me like the gory parts of your life, but like, let’s find out like like what are, what are the issues that you’re having and like, let’s find out like where these stem from and let’s find out how we can like redirect this and essentially like going back and being like cool, like there’s a reason why you like avoid men. Like you were sexually abused from like three to six by you know, by like a family member and you’re like. And then like from, from like three on, like your dad hated you. You’re like, makes sense. Let’s work on that. Like, let’s like reassociate like, like men. Like let’s find a safe man that like you can befriend and like, like, like making those small steps forward. And that’s really helped. That really helped like my journey, like in, in life.
[00:58:46] Adam Williams: Now that you’re 40, do you see that you can be the 40 year old man that you maybe wished you had in your life when you were younger?
[00:58:57] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, it’s funny, I definitely, I do feel like that that’s something that’s like in my head all the time. I’m like, I want to be like a safe place for me when I was young to where I wouldn’t, I’d be like, come to me with your burdens, like, come to me with your pains and, like, I’ll help you carry them. I’m not going to, like, shame you or I’m not going to call you like a piece of shit or something, or I’m not going to make you feel more worthless than you already do. Yeah, I mean, I. I feel like that with, like, I don’t know, with like, friends and my chickens and my dog. I’m like, I’m going to love you and I’m gonna, like, love you. Like, I think a father should love. Like, I don’t have kids of my own, but I like, do my best to. To show love and care for something that’s not me. Like, you’re. Yeah. Something outside of myself.
[00:59:47] Adam Williams: You’ve continued with therapy or therapy practices of some kind? I think. I don’t know if it was off and on, but in the years since I remember seeing that you had been to maybe in the last year or two, a week long, I think therapy retreat in Utah was it, and where you were working with art of some kind. And. And what is the name of that? Where you use gold in the Japanese technique to filling cracks of pottery? Things like that.
[01:00:19] Johnny Buschmann: What is it?
[01:00:19] Adam Williams: It starts with a T. I’m thinking Kintsugi was.
[01:00:22] Johnny Buschmann: Oh, yeah, something like that. Is it me?
[01:00:24] Adam Williams: Okay, so got me.
[01:00:26] Johnny Buschmann: Should have studied for the test.
[01:00:29] Adam Williams: Yeah. So you have continued with therapy and I think, I think ultimately you have found people who have been able to be positive in that experience with you when it started so roughly earlier on.
[01:00:43] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, definitely. And that I call the week long thing. I call it trauma camp. Like I went to trauma camp, but I. It was. I went twice to two different ones, but they’re a week long and it was just like very intensive. One of them was in. It’s called on site and it’s in. They have them all over. This one was in Tennessee, but it was four people who survived mass shootings specifically. So then I think what was really nice about that is it’s like it broke down all these other walls where it’s like, oh, we’ve all been through like the same style of like traumatic thing.
That’s really weird that you hear about in the news. You’re like, oh, a mass shooting survivor. But that was really helpful to like, heal with other people and to be like, this is how I feel. Because if you told someone that didn’t go through a shooting that you feel bad for surviving it, they’d be like, we’re glad you survived. Or we’re Glad you’re here. We’re glad you didn’t get shot. But then if you have that same conversation with someone that went through a shooting or went through war or went through something, they have that guilt also. And you’re like, okay, like, not just like birds of a feather, but also, how do we not carry this guilt? Like, because we. We know we don’t want to be dead, we know we don’t want to carry this.
[01:02:05] Adam Williams: What have you learned about that then? That for somebody who’s listening, who maybe has been through their own version of some experience where they have survivor’s guilt, do you feel like you’ve come to a place where you’ve learned something about how to lighten that load a bit and accept that you do deserve to be here? You’re here, and you are worthy of love and all the positive that life can be going forward, while, of course you can’t. I mean, that is part of the past. You’re not able to totally set it down. I understand.
[01:02:40] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
Yeah. I think just knowing that it’s okay to be alive, you’re allowed to have survived. And, like, by surviving doesn’t make someone else’s loss.
It doesn’t take from their loss. You know, you’re actually like, you can still give back. And, like, you have the opportunity to still show love and to show care to people through hard situations, and you can be there for people instead of.
Instead of, like, what I would probably do before is like, I shouldn’t be here. Like, I just kind of feeling like I’m like, a burden to everyone.
Like, in every situation. Like, no matter what it was, I’ll be like, oh, gosh, I shouldn’t be here. I don’t belong. Blah, blah, blah. And I don’t know, maybe after, like, working through, like, that survivor’s guilt, which I still have, I still carry it, unfortunately. Like, there’s times where I’m like, yeah, that’s funny, because it’s been so long ago. Like, I was 14, it’s been 26 years. Like, it’s way more time has passed?
[01:03:51] Adam Williams: I feel like. And please speak to this if you think I’m wrong in some way. If somebody feels like in the positive that they bring to the world that there could be risk of someone who’s experiencing survivor’s guilt feeling like, I have to earn my right to be alive every day. So when I do positives for other people, I’m having to do that. Like, I can’t. I can’t be the full human that others get to Be like, I don’t get to have an off day. I don’t get to step back and only take care of myself. I have to always be something else in order to earn my right, you know?
[01:04:26] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[01:04:26] Adam Williams: That feels like a risk that I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t want you to carry that burden either, feeling like you have to earn it.
[01:04:33] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. And I think that that’s interesting because, like, that kind of. I came back to faith, like, a year ago or two years ago, and that’s one of the things where it’s like, you’re fearfully and wonderfully made. Like, you’re not loved for what you can do. You’re loved for because, like, God made you, and that’s it. It’s like, you can’t do enough or give enough or help enough to be loved. Like, you’re loved just because you are. And I think that that was, like, something about. Like, about faith that I just never felt, because I always felt worthless. Like, I always felt like no matter what I did, it was never enough.
[01:05:15] Adam Williams: Were you raised with a faith tradition in the family?
[01:05:19] Johnny Buschmann: I was, but I didn’t take it seriously. I was just like, oh, we have to go here every week. Like, this is baloney. Like, I’d rather watch football on Sunday than go to church.
[01:05:28] Adam Williams: No, I. Yeah, I felt. I’m sure, the same way I never wanted to go, but a year ago, then you’re returning to that. Whatever the foundation was.
What. What led you back to that? How did you decide? How did you make amends within yourself to say, no, I. I do deserve this relationship with whatever faith is in my heart and mind.
[01:05:48] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. I ran across the story of Elijah and he.
I was. I struggle with depression. Like, I. It’s obviously. I guess I’ve talked about this whole podcast, but I ran across the story of Elijah, and he was depressed and wanting to die. He was like, take my life from me. Like, I don’t want to be here anymore. And in. In my head, what I thought God would say would be, like, you have to keep going. Like, keep. Like. Like, you’re not allowed to stop. Like, you’re not allowed rest. And instead, what he did is he sent him ravens. And he’s like, you know what you need? You need to go rest. Here’s bread or cake, however it’s written, and I’m gonna let you rest. And like, these, like, ravens or crows, corvids, which happen to be my favorite bird, brought him food. And. And it was like, you need food and rest. You don’t need burden. You just need to rest. And I think that that was something where I was like, like that, like one little thing. I was like, oh my gosh, like someone else struggles with depression and, and they weren’t shamed for it. They were shown love and they were shown rest and it wasn’t like, you have to push through this. It’s like, no, like if you’re depressed, you need some deep rest and like sleep it out, get some food in you.
[01:07:09] Adam Williams: You have mentioned obviously the suicidal ideation at times, which started way younger than I recognized.
[01:07:17] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[01:07:17] Adam Williams: But it also has been as recent as what, the last year or two or three.
[01:07:22] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, yeah, I’ve.
Oh gosh. I just. Yeah, I’ve struggled my whole life with it. And I feel like it goes in like four year cycles is what it feels like.
[01:07:34] Adam Williams: Like every four years you start coming into that place of darkness again.
[01:07:37] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, yeah. And sometimes it stays longer. Sometimes it’s two years. But it’s like, it’s like this, like. I don’t know how to describe it, but two years ago or three years ago, I guess. Let’s see. Yeah, I was gonna hang myself and I had the rope picked. I had the day picked and I was like, tonight’s it. Like, I’m done.
Was gonna call my brother and talk to him. Jeremy. And then I, it was, I was just like, I’m. I’m over this. Like, how long do I have to battle like this, like this like, feeling of not being enough or this feeling of like not being worth it? And like, do I just feel like this forever? And then eventually like, life takes me. I was like, I’m sick of it. And I. It was interesting because like, my buddy Colin was just driving around, he’s like, hey man. Like, I was driving by and saw your door open and look, I felt like you were about to be in Snap Canyon. And I was like, what the hell? Like, what are you talking about? He’s like, you want to grab a beer later and hang out? I was like, yeah, I do. So we ended up hanging out that night. My brother somehow caught wind and he drove down and spent the night with me and like, was just like, you need to get help. That’s when I went to one of those like week long therapy things to like, work through it.
But I think with all of that, I like, I took time to like, listen to it and to be like, what is this noise? And it was always, it was never like, I want to kill myself or I hate myself. It would be like, you should Kill yourself. You’re a piece of shit. Like, you don’t belong here. No one loves you. And I was like, that’s weird. Like, one day it just clicked. I was like, that. Said you. I don’t speak to myself in the you form. I’d say, like, I would say I. Like, I love myself. I wouldn’t say, you love yourself. Like, that’s.
[01:09:30] Adam Williams: What do you think that voice is? Who’s saying that to you?
[01:09:33] Johnny Buschmann: I don’t know. I. That’s what I struggle with. I was like, is this, like, a.
Like, evil of some sort? Like, like, what the hell was that? Like, why does it. Why don’t I hear that same voice being like, hey, you’re awesome? Like, it doesn’t say that. It’s only bad stuff, like, constantly. And I. I have my theory. And it’s like, I think all of us as people, like, we all carry, like, generational sins, and we all carry, like, this evil with us or this good with us, and we have our choice.
We have, like, the power of life and death on our tongues, and we get to say, I love you, you’re great, you’re wonderful. And, like, then I’m, like, casting that onto you. Or we say you’re a piece of. Like, you’re not worth it. Like, I don’t love you, you’re not my son. Something like that. Or like, even, like.
Like, you’re just used. Like, you’re just, like, for my own pleasure. And that’s it. That’s all you’re worth is just for me. And so it’s like, you. You carry that stuff that people put on you. So that’s. That sounds super odd. I know it seems ridiculous, but it just felt like something that was, like, put on me because I’ve had it since I was a kid. Like, I always had that same voice be like, you know, even through Columbine, even before that, when I struggled. And I think that’s what made Columbine so hard for me is dealing with, like, I didn’t have, like, the. The strong foundation going into it. Like, I was already struggling. And then a big event happens, and it’s like.
To be honest, I’m glad I wasn’t in a worse place because I don’t think I could have handled it, you know, I think I was in a bad enough place as it sat.
[01:11:15] Adam Williams: I mentioned earlier that I think of Columbine and that shooting as the first one. Whether that’s actually factually true. Yeah, definitely not the first one in my mind.
[01:11:25] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, the first big One is what it. Yeah, the first, like, super televised.
[01:11:29] Adam Williams: And so there’s obviously been so many since hundreds just of school shootings. Then you throw in mass shootings that are at movie theaters, stores, churches.
What does that feel like to you as someone who has survived such an experience?
For those of you who have been through it, I don’t want to put a question or feeling on you, but if I try to guess at what that would feel like, is that that would be very difficult on any given day when you can look at the news and see that something else has happened. 26 years after your experience in high school, why is this still happening? You know, that kind of question coming to mind, like, how is our experience not enough for you all to care and put an end to this?
[01:12:19] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, and that’s something that I battle with because I. I struggle. I can’t watch the news, like, straight up. Like, I just, like, it’s something that I can’t deal with. Like, I can read the news, I can read about things, but I can’t actually, like, watch it. It’s like, just like, too much for me. It’s too triggering. Like, ever since. Since post Columbine, it’s like the news just like, kind of like, it like, elevates like, my heart rate way too much and I just, like, my brain shuts down. It, like, literally will black out. And I’m like, I don’t remember anything that happens after that.
But why does it keep happening? I don’t even have a good answer. Like, I. There’s just like, that evil and like, that hatred that, like, must be brooding in these poor people, that they think that the only way out is that they hurt someone else.
[01:13:10] Adam Williams: I don’t think my question for you is trying to get you to understand their minds and those who are taking the actions. It’s more to understand you and what that feels like that we might be re. Inflicting some level of trauma on everybody who’s been through these experiences every time we allow it to happen again and again. I’m not wanting to put that on you. I’m not trying to put words in your mouth or, you know, how does it feel to you knowing that we are so many unnecessary shootings further on and, I mean, there’s no end in sight.
[01:13:47] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, it’s. It’s hard. It hurts. It’s like you can’t help but be empathetic and see and put yourself in the shoes of the people that are going through it and being like all these kids, women, children, men, whoever it is, like, going through it, like. Like, they’re gonna be carrying that same burden that I carry, like, throughout their whole life. And so I see it, and it just, like, breaks my heart. And that’s.
That’s what makes it hard to watch the news, is I can’t help but feel empathy for them. I can’t help but be like, this poor kid’s childhood is ruined at the moment because, like, they don’t just get to, like, go to sports and get to play the piano or whatever. They’re going to have to think about, like, I. I go to a restaurant, and I’m like. I’m like, okay, where’s the exits? Like, what’s the door? Like, where. Like, if someone comes in, what can I grab? If someone comes in, where can I hide? Like, and. And, like, you’ll rarely see me sit in a booth with my back face to the door, ever. I’m like, all right, I’m in the corner. I can. And that was so long ago. Like, I can’t imagine, like. Like, veterans of war, like, going through. Like, my brother’s a veteran, and, like, my little sister, like, she also went through a school shooting. So, like, in our family, there’s five kids, and three of us went through school shootings.
[01:15:16] Adam Williams: She went through a separate school shooting.
[01:15:18] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. In middle school. And, like, that’s her story to tell.
[01:15:21] Adam Williams: Like, oh, my goodness.
[01:15:23] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. And, like, it’s one of those things where I feel I have, like, a lot of weight for her because, like, I feel like at Columbine, people are like, oh, my gosh, I’m so sorry you went there. And, like, my heart goes out to you and blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, I get, like, showered with empathy, and it feels undeserved, and. And, like, that’s probably my own stuff I have to work through, but, like, for my sister, it’s like Deer Creek Middle School. Like, there was a shooting there. And, like, wait, what? And so my mom on top of it, like, my mom and dad, like, they had three kids go through, you know, go through shootings. And I try. I, like, set a reminder on my phone to, like, I have, like, my little reminder. That way, it’s like, every year, like, when it pops up, I just, like, give her a call, send her a text back, dude, I love you. I’m thinking about you. Like, you’re not forgotten, you know?
[01:16:11] Adam Williams: So while you and your brother went through that shared experience. But don’t talk about it. I can’t, man. I did not know that. I cannot Believe that she also went through another one. But the two of you, then, I don’t know if you’ve talked about it, but you at least are showing up in that way. Has loving support every year on that anniversary.
[01:16:34] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. And me and my sister, like, we’re really close. Like, we’re very close. Like when I go to Denver, like, I spend the night in her apartment and sleep on her couch and we watch Love is Blind or like some other crazy, like, reality TV show together. And like, yeah, I. To be honest, like, the reason I came back to my parents house whenever my.
My parents got divorced was like, I was like, I want to, I want to be like a stable place for my brother, for my younger brother Jeremy, and then my sister Jamie, because, like, they were still so young.
[01:17:09] Adam Williams: How much younger is she than you?
[01:17:12] Johnny Buschmann: She is. She’s 28. Oh, gosh. She’s gonna shoot me if I get that wrong. But 28, she’s under 30. And then. Yeah, so 12 years or 13 years younger, I think is actually what she is.
[01:17:22] Adam Williams: So she was. She was a baby when you and your brother had the experience at Columba?
[01:17:27] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, actually, funny thing. So she was a baby, and I was at the hospital when she was born, and the nurse came in and was like, John Bushman. I was like, present. And the nurse looked at me like, all right, what’s her name? And I was like, Jamie. And then the nurse wrote it down, walked out and was like, all right, another 14 year old had a baby, one idiot. And then.
And then they wake my mom up because she had a rough delivery. And they’re like, here’s. Here’s Jamie. And my mom’s crying. She’s like, who’s Jamie?
So I named my sister because my mom had it planned. I think she wanted to name her Jessana. Was like the original plan.
And so, yeah, I swiped in there named Jamie, saved her, got her a name that, That I liked. No, I don’t even. I don’t even know where Jamie came from.
[01:18:21] Adam Williams: But that’s funny.
When I’m asking you about how you feel about these experiences. No, and that was a good one.
When we’re talking about the fact that these things still happen.
[01:18:34] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[01:18:35] Adam Williams: And then your sister went through it, and by this time you’re 26, you’re mid-20s. When she’s going through her own experience of that. And I can only imagine you’re thinking, I mean, why does she have to.
[01:18:47] Johnny Buschmann: Do this to you?
[01:18:48] Adam Williams: That’s just, it’s. You mentioned the hyper vigilance too. I feel that way.
[01:18:53] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[01:18:53] Adam Williams: Anyway. And I’ve not been through that experience, and I think that my military experience is only a minor part of it because I was never in combat.
[01:19:02] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[01:19:03] Adam Williams: So there’s something going on with me where now I take in the news. I take in the fact that we are a country that just allows these things to continue. We’re averaging. I’ve. I’ve seen two a day, and I’m not even sure that that’s as many as is really happening. I think part of it comes down to definition, which, by the way, there’s a definition for mass shooting. Did you know that they have since had to come up with, well, what counts as mass versus not how many people.
[01:19:31] Johnny Buschmann: It’s ridiculous.
[01:19:32] Adam Williams: So rather than ending it, we’re just like, well, let’s put some language on it so we can clarify what counts. Yeah, but I go into a grocery store, I go into a restaurant. I am hyper vigilant on behalf of my family, and I virtually never sit with my back to the door. And I’ve not been through the experience you have. So I can only imagine, man, if I had been. And that’s so understandable to me.
[01:19:56] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. Yeah. And that hyper vigilance. I’ve been fortunate. I’ve been in relationships with girls, and they’ve been so kind and been like, all right, restaurants aren’t your thing. I get it. Or. Or, you know, whatever. It’s like, let’s get takeout. Let’s go to the park. Let’s. Or like, going to the grocery store. I was like, I really hate going to the grocery store. When I’m there, it’s like, I shop just the outsides really quick, get my stuff and go out and.
And like, just being in like, those confined spaces. I know it sounds so silly, but it’s just like they’ve. I’ve just had so much grace from. From, like, from people. Yeah. I mean, I’ve. I’ve walked out from. I’ve walked. I’ve walked away from carts before. I’ve broken down in grocery stores and just like, left cards and I can’t do this. Gotta, like, there’s too much going on. I’m like, I’ll be here at 9 at night, like right before you guys close. Which is silly. I mean, it just feels silly. It feels silly to like, leave a cart and be like, I. But that.
[01:20:52] Adam Williams: It doesn’t. To me, I think what you’ve experienced and what you’ve been describing here for us is something that, on one hand, statistically, I am part of a massive majority who has not been shot at for going to a store or a school or a church. But so many people have. If we just look at the number of people who have, it’s such an absurd thing that so many of you have been through this trauma.
I was in Canada a year or two ago with my wife. We were in Vancouver for a week, and both of us. And we couldn’t help. I mean, we talked some about it, I’m sure. Couldn’t help but feel like just by crossing this imaginary line on the continent, going you into a country that’s not gun crazy, we felt safer. And then I felt guilt that we’d left our sons at home with her parents because they’re still on the side of the imaginary line where there is just such a. A proliferation of gun craziness.
[01:21:49] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[01:21:50] Adam Williams: That I felt like if anything were to happen to them, as I know as small odds as that is, if anything were to happen to them, I would have felt so horrible for not being there.
[01:22:00] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. And that’s like, I struggle because I’m. Me and my brother, we went different routes with the shooting where I. I was like, I never, ever need to be near a gun again. Like, I have no desire. It’s not a thing that I want. It’s not a thing I need to be around. Like.
And he went the other route where he’s like, oh, I’m never going to be unarmed again. Like, I will never have this taken from me. Like, I will be prepared. And, like, I don’t know if that’s just, like, a protector role that he took on, but I.
I don’t know what the right thing to do is. Like, I’m not a fan of guns.
[01:22:35] Adam Williams: Does he carry all the time?
[01:22:37] Johnny Buschmann: Huh? Yeah.
[01:22:37] Adam Williams: Yeah, yeah. I think both of those actually sound reasonable when you’ve been through the experience that you two have been.
[01:22:42] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[01:22:43] Adam Williams: I’ll admit, when I see people carrying holstered sidearms into the grocery store, I think you’re living such an anxious life because I walk out of the house and I’m like, okay, I need my keys, my wallet, my phone. And that person saying, I need my keys, my wallet, my phone, and a gun in a holster on my hip, because anywhere could be the moment I need it. And I always look at. Statistically, probably no one ever actually ends up needing it, except for that very rare occasion when you do. But I couldn’t fault your brother for thinking that at all. I think that’s an incredibly normal response. But I also Think so is yours. It’s like growing up in a household where you have an alcoholic father or an abusive father. And you can either carry that forward and perpetuate that pain when you become a father and you become an alcoholic. And you can also go the opposite direction, which is what my dad did. His dad was an abusive alcoholic. My dad almost never touched a drop in his life and was a very gentle man.
I think both are very reasonable. And those are, you know, the normal responses we have to trauma in our lives.
[01:23:46] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. And your dad took the. Your dad took the high road of like, I’m not going to let this trauma pass through me. And it was probably hard to not drink because he probably had feelings where he’s like, I want to bury this feeling. You know, it’s great way to bury feelings. Alcohol.
[01:24:00] Adam Williams: Yeah.
[01:24:00] Johnny Buschmann: Like some sort of substance. And like, he’s like, if I’m not drinking, then I can also control my. My violence. And I’m not going to be abusive to my son. Going to do two things, like, not drinking is not enough.
[01:24:12] Adam Williams: When you were talking about the prescribed numbing out, I’m thinking it’s interesting that we have a system where that is part of it. That’s not to judge one way or the other. I am not an expert. I can’t say when that’s appropriate and when it’s not. But the way you are describing that as something that’s sort of numbing you out and you’re becoming this zombie to it. We do that all the time with things like drugs and alcohol that’s considered maybe it’s excessive. Maybe depending on the drug, it’s illegal. But if this one’s prescribed, you’re getting essentially the same effect. You are numbing your feelings
But a doctor authorized it, therefore you feel like, well, that’s what I’m supposed to do.
[01:24:50] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. And I. I’m not here to, like, tell anyone what to do. But I stopped drinking a year and a half ago because I was like, I’m gonna be sober. Like, don’t drink, don’t smoke. I drink my Red Bulls in my coffee. Um, but other than that, I was.
[01:25:03] Adam Williams: Like, to calm down.
[01:25:05] Johnny Buschmann: To calm down. Yeah. Just like, smooths everything out. I’m like, ah, finally. Like, I not as anxious and not as, like, hyper. I’m not moving around as much. And it’s like, weird how it happens, but. But I was like, I’m not drinking anymore. I’m gonna feel all these feelings. I’m gonna feel this shame and this guilt. I’m Gonna work through it. I’m gonna feel like the stuff that I’m avoiding, like, this not being enough.
[01:25:26] Adam Williams: That’s such a. An evolution of. I mean, spiritually, your soul, your heart, your mind, the places you have come to and grown through so much. You know, I certainly hear resilience. You’re talking about love and faith and forgiveness and grace, and there’s all these positives going on that you’re shining here.
[01:25:47] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. I always say I took the prison route. I was like, I found God. I started working out, lifting weights. I stopped drinking. I forgave everyone that I could that. I was like, I’m sorry. And also, if I did something, I’m so sorry. Like, I don’t want. I don’t want to be someone that has that burden, that puts a burden on someone else that they have to carry in. And, like, I also want to, like, drop the burden that I’m carrying from someone else and be like, you know what? It’s okay. Like. Like, I forgave the family member that.
That took advantage of me when I was a little kid. It’s like, you know what? This. This made me not want sex until I was. Whatever. Who cares? I was a virgin until I was 35. Because I was like, sex is scary. Sex is dangerous. Like, don’t go near it. And, like, that’s something that, like, I had to work through. And, like, as a man, there’s shame there, too, because you’re like, sure. You just. I would lie. I’d be like, oh, no, of course I have sex. That’s awesome. You know, And. But on the inside, I was like, there’s no way I can be that vulnerable. And I. And I carried it for that long. And it’s like, I think that’s one.
[01:26:57] Adam Williams: Of the amazing things about this conversation. And you, Jonny, is that as two men sitting here talking about all these things, and of course, on your side is where all this story is coming from, in this vulnerability that has not been modeled for most of us, almost none of us, for men who are of our age. I often think about this. Sometimes I ask guests, why has it been important to you to be willing to share like this with other people, which defies that sort of norm of, no, be a man. Keep it in. You’re a mechanic. You work with hands. You have a beard. You’re wearing flannel. You can get away with looking and seeming like just the manly man that nobody’s going to question your man card, so to speak. Right? But we’re both sitting here talking about these emotionally challenging, vulnerable things. Why is it a value to you to share that? Why are you willing to sit here with me and do this?
[01:27:52] Johnny Buschmann: You paid me. Just kidding.
[01:27:53] Adam Williams: No, you actually, you paid me. You brought me eggs from your chickens.
[01:27:58] Johnny Buschmann: I did bring eggs. Farm fresh, organic. They also get pet. They’re pretty well cared for chickens.
Chicky Minaj is one of those chickens. Just so you know, if you guys look for good names.
Um, but I think I’ve been trying to do things that don’t feel good, vulnerability doesn’t feel good, and like, exposing myself to things that I don’t want to do. I’m like, why don’t I want to do this? And whether it’s waking up early, whether it’s taking care of myself, whether it’s taking care of my body, whether it’s reading whatever it is, it’s like, those things aren’t. They don’t feel good. I’d rather sleep in and not do anything and be lazy. And I don’t want to be vulnerable. Like, we’ve had this. We’ve talked about doing this podcast for, I don’t know, a year now or something like that, or maybe eight months.
[01:28:54] Adam Williams: More than a year even.
[01:28:55] Johnny Buschmann: Okay, there we go.
And it’s been three weeks since we first. And like, so there is a lot of resistance that I’ve been putting up to doing it. Or it’s like, I don’t feel that great. Can we, can we put it off another week? Ah, this. My throat is not feeling good. Can we do another, you know, could we do next week? And then I think just being able to be vulnerable and honest and be like, hey, like, I have these hurts inside. This is how I deal with them. This is how I never want it to be a wine fest. Like, I never want someone to be like, oh, you’re just over there complaining because I. I don’t want to complain. Like, I’m. I don’t feel like I’m complaining.
[01:29:32] Adam Williams: I’m just like, I don’t feel like you are either. And I think anybody who, who puts that on you from listening to this, which I don’t think is what’s going to happen, I think they’re really having to look past so much of the good and the value of. Of this sharing. And like I just said, you’re. You’re talking about love and forgiveness and faith and grace and all these things to be through the experiences that to. That you have gone through is so extraordinary. And I don’t think anybody can claim that you should have handled this in any other way than you have. You’ve done what you can and you’ve grown. And that’s very clear, I think here.
[01:30:12] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, I think even just being vulnerable enough to forgive my dad, and it was like, this side where it’s like, I see him as this, like, little boy himself that was rejected, that was dejected, that was beat, that was. Had all these traumas put on him his whole life. And, like, by me being vulnerable enough to be, like, being vulnerable enough to, like, see his own inadequacies and, like, probably how he portrayed him, of course, like, he’s going to be aggressive and abusive if that’s how he feels on the inside. And just being able to, like, show him love and, like, that was, like, a really powerful day. And it took me six years. I didn’t talk to him for six years, like, before that point, because, like, the last time I talked to him, he swung on my mom and got arrested.
And, like, that’s their story. And it’s like. But part of it, it’s like. It’s like, dude, I don’t trust you. Like, I don’t. I don’t need to forgive this guy. I never need to see him again in my life. And then I realized I was like, I’m holding this, like, I’m, like, harboring this, like, resentment towards this man that’s my father. And, like. And I need to, like, work through that because I don’t want to. I don’t want someone to hold that against me, like, my fault, my flaws and my faults, because I’ve definitely hurt people, and I didn’t mean to. I didn’t know I was hurting people or whatever, you know, whatever the excuse is.
[01:31:37] Adam Williams: Did you know when you went there that day, met him at the restaurant, that you were going to forgive him? And did you actually forgive him so that he knows it? Or are you saying just internally you have been able to let go in forgiveness?
[01:31:51] Johnny Buschmann: So I went through this therapy that. It’s called emdr, and, like, you walk through essentially, like you’re with a therapist, they stick, like, these ear plugs on you, and you hear, like, a beep in each ear, and then there’s, like, lights on the wall and they, like, light up on each side, however it works. And you talk about a traumatic incident, you walk through it again, and you re. Process the incident. And I went through that for almost two years reprocessing, like, childhood reprocessing, like, kind of everything in my brain and call of mine included in my dad. And during that time, I forgave my dad because I was able to see him as he truly is and not who. I was able to see him at his core as just like a broken little boy and wanting love and feeling dejected and. And putting off all of those emotions on everyone else around him because he couldn’t deal with them himself. And the only way he knew how to deal with it was to, like, spew hatred and anger, anger outwards, instead of being. Instead of, you know, internalizing it and processing it and being like, no, I’m. I am loved. Like, and I’m gonna show that love, you know, So I forgave him. That was like, probably. That was like, 2017 is when I went through that. Like, that went through, like, the. That therapy. And then.
So I forgave him then to myself, like, I wrote it in my journal. I, like, forgave him. I was like, I’m not holding this against him, but I don’t want to talk to him. I don’t want to see him. I also don’t want to, like, risk being abused. I don’t want to risk, like, him, like, destroying me emotionally or mentally or anything like that. And because now in the point, it’s like, he’s an old man and I could fight him if I needed to is how I felt. I was like, okay, you can’t hurt me physically now. I’m bigger, and I’m not just like a little kid.
[01:33:45] Adam Williams: I’m guessing you don’t see yourself as a violent person, though. Like, that’s a. That’s a last resort sort of thing in defense of yourself in that circumstance.
[01:33:52] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[01:33:52] Adam Williams: You don’t strike me in. In the way we’re talking or anything that you would want to inflict harm in that way on anybody.
[01:33:59] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, violence isn’t something that I enjoy. I love fighting. That sounds not like. Not like fist fighting. I love wrestling. Like, I grew up with all brothers, so, like, we all grew up fighting and wrestling, and I love that stuff, but I don’t like to do it. I don’t like it to come from. I like it to come from a place of sport, not from a place of anger and hatred. Because, like, that, like, it, like, brings out like this, like, I hate that rage feeling. No. So I don’t like doing that. Me and my dad, we have gotten, like, of course we got physical and, like, we have gotten in fights, physical fights. And, like, I don’t like going that route.
[01:34:33] Adam Williams: I took us on a sidetrack here.
[01:34:34] Johnny Buschmann: That’s okay.
[01:34:35] Adam Williams: I Realized I still haven’t let you say when you met with him again in this past year or past few months or so, is that the time then that you.
[01:34:43] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[01:34:43] Adam Williams: You actually offered out loud to him, I forgive you.
[01:34:46] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. And it was so, so interesting. So, yeah, I was like, I forgive you and I love you. And that was one of those things where it’s like, even just saying that, like, sense chills down my spine because I was. I was like, I do love this man. Like, he is my father. Like, I’ve only wanted love from. I just wanted to be loved my whole life by this one person that never wanted to show it because he didn’t know how.
[01:35:11] Adam Williams: How did he respond?
[01:35:14] Johnny Buschmann: Like you would assume a Vietnam vet to respond. He’s like, I don’t need forgiveness. Like, basically, like, kind of like pushing it off.
But at the same time, I was like, no, no, listen, I forgive you. It’s okay. I’m not holding this. I’m not holding any of this back from you. I’m not holding a burden. Like, I love you as your son.
And I think it was one of those things that. I’m not saying he needed to hear or wanted to hear, but I think it’s something that I wanted to get out and I wanted to be like, I want you to know, like, you’re forgiven. I want you to know that I love you. I want you to know that I want a relationship. Sure. Do I have boundaries? Of course. I’m not going to. I’m not going to be taken advantage of. I’m not going to be abused. I’m not going to let you bully me, but I’m going to show you love. I can do all those things while having a wall up, like, when needed. And so, yeah, I did go there just wanting to talk to him. Let’s see where this goes. And, like, I don’t know what it looks like to have a relationship with my dad because I’ve never had a relationship with my dad.
[01:36:16] Adam Williams: Do you now?
[01:36:17] Johnny Buschmann: We talk on the phone every once in a while. Sometimes it’s hard just because, like, I. I just want him to be like, how are you? Like, what’s new with you? And it’s never anything like that. It’s like. It’s almost like I’m like, I want you to be interested in my life, too. And it’s okay that he’s not. Like, he doesn’t know how to. I’m not going to teach an old dog new tricks. I just have to. It’s not my job to do that. My job is to control what I can, which is, I’ll show you love. Like, I’ll show you care. You didn’t have it either.
My little brother Jeremy, he tried to reach out to my dad a long time ago. It was after he got back from Afghanistan. And he’s like, hey, I want to meet you at a bar. Let’s meet up tomorrow. We can both talk about how shitty our dads were over a beer.
And that when I was sitting next to him when he said it on the phone, and I, like, wanted to just cry and give him the biggest hug, because I was like, bro, that is empathy. It’s like we both had a rough go. Let’s level with each other, and let’s just talk. We don’t have to pretend that everything was rosy and it’s okay that it wasn’t. And life isn’t supposed to be rosy all the time. Sometimes these hard parts, some of, like, the most beautiful people I know, have gone through, like, the roughest stuff, and you’re like, God, that. That’s. That’s why you look like a flower, because you’ve been in dirt and, like, covered in shit, and, like, you came out beautiful. Just like your soul is, like, so wonderful.
[01:37:47] Adam Williams: You mentioned he went to Afghanistan. And it occurs to me that of the five kids, three of them were in school shootings. He is one of the two that was not right.
[01:37:56] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[01:37:57] Adam Williams: And then he went to war.
[01:37:58] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. He spent, I think, 12 or 11 years. 12. 12 years somewhere around there. 12 years in the Air Force. Served all over. He was in war zones. Also mechanic. We opened the shop together. So me and Jeremy, we. We ran it together for a long time. He lives in Flagstaff, Arizona, now with his wife. And he works on helicopters, but he’s also civilian.
He works on civilian helicopters for. For the hospital.
[01:38:26] Adam Williams: Because he’s no longer in the Air Force.
[01:38:28] Johnny Buschmann: No longer? Yes. Oh, yes. No longer in the Air Force.
[01:38:30] Adam Williams: Okay.
We mentioned the chickens. You know, this is. This is part of the. My girls, part of the big year here. We’ve. We’ve talked about your dad, sobriety, faith. And this was also part of this incredible year, year and a half, that. That you’ve been having of growth. You have a chicken coop. You have how many chickens?
[01:38:52] Johnny Buschmann: I have. There’s 12 chickens.
[01:38:56] Adam Williams: And so these eggs.
[01:38:57] Johnny Buschmann: Oh, yeah.
[01:38:58] Adam Williams: I mean, this is a big topic as we record this. Right. The whole country is talking about eggs, and it’s a political talking point of how expensive eggs are. And you walked in the door giving Me an awesome carton of six eggs from your chickens with Yoruba stamped on the carton. It was so cool, and I appreciate it, especially because they’re like, tell me about these things of joy in your life, like the chickens and from afar, because we can look at things like social media or seeing you around sometimes. You have all kinds of friends. I see lots of joy from you and singing karaoke and the fourth of July parade. I saw you with one of your Volkswagens and a bunch of friends. I think you were on roller skates, if I remember. Right outside of the van. I mean, this is all kinds of fun and joy, and there’s creativity. This is how you’re living your life. In the midst of all these other things we’re talking about. I want to hear about that piece of you, too, and how you’ve come to these places of. I’m gonna have chickens, and I’m gonna name them Chickie Minaj and Cardi Bird.
Yeah. How did you get into chickens or whatever else you want to talk about and everything I just spewed out there.
[01:40:18] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. I think. I think the. All the stuff that, like, is on the outside. It’s like, there’s a lot of darkness inside and sadness and hurt, and I try not to put that out. I try not to.
I try to, like, live, like, a joyful life, and I try to show love, and I try to make people laugh because, like, I know how it feels to. To have that darkness. I know how it feels to have that hurt. And I don’t want other people to feel that if they’re around me. Like, I want them to feel like what I’m. What I’m putting on them, which is, like, hopefully love and joy and fun and, like, wow, this is, like, an adventure. And, like, these are. These are all fun things. And, like, if, like. Cause that’s what I can control. It’s, like, harder to control, like, the sadness or the darkness inside. Yeah. So it’s like, that’s, like, the choice. And I love river surfing. It’s like, my favorite thing to do. And snowboarding. I’m gonna go to Monarch today. I have my snowboard on my van. And, yeah, the chickens, like, I kind of fell into those when Tractor Supply and Murdoch’s has chickens. And they. It’s hard to not, you know, grab a grip of them and go home, be like, all right, now I’m gonna have to build a coop for these. And then I’m like, how do I build the coop? What do I do? And of Course I was like, I want to build them a nice house, and I want to build them something where it’s like, something where they’re protected and they’re controlled and they’re well fed and they’re dry and they have, like, a space for themselves, because that’s what I want for myself. And so it’s just the constant, like, try to put out in the world, like, what you would like for yourself, and eventually it’ll come around.
And, I mean, it definitely has. It’s like, those chickens bring me a ton of joy. And they’re so silly because then I can give eggs to people. And sometimes I, like, start where I’m like, cool, here’s like, just a few eggs. Like, do you eat them? Because some people don’t eat eggs. And I feel bad. I’m like, okay, sorry. Like, throw them at a car if you want.
[01:42:13] Adam Williams: That’s no longer just a little gift. You’re like a hero showing up with eggs to places now.
[01:42:18] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. And they’re. They’re healthy eggs. I mean, they. They’re. They’re chickens that aren’t, like, cooped up. Like, I go out and I spend, like, an hour with them every day, just, like, talking to them or being like, sup, ladies? Like, if I yell, sup, ladies? From a distance, sup, ladies? They all come running. And it’s funny because that just ended up being, like, our call sign. And as soon as I say that, they know they’re getting treats, and they’ll, like, swarm around you and.
[01:42:43] Adam Williams: Yeah, that’s awesome.
[01:42:45] Johnny Buschmann: They’re friendly. They don’t really fight.
[01:42:47] Adam Williams: Let’s go snowboarding sometime.
[01:42:49] Johnny Buschmann: I’d love to.
[01:42:50] Adam Williams: And river surfing. I’ve talked with Jess Oatman on the podcast. She’s an artist here.
[01:42:54] Johnny Buschmann: She is. Great. I always see her there, but I don’t talk to anybody. I’m super shy, unfortunately.
[01:42:58] Adam Williams: I talked with her about. I’m trying to recruit friends that can help me get out there on the river. I’ve never done it, but I have. I have a board I bought used from one of the rental outfitters here. That’s a bad fishboard. And I just. I’m trying to, like, make myself have to get out there and try this thing because I think I’ll love it, but I don’t really have familiarity with the river and currents and the cold and all the things in that way. So I’m saying it now publicly again.
[01:43:22] Johnny Buschmann: I love it with you.
[01:43:24] Adam Williams: To have you guys hold me accountable.
[01:43:25] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah, we’ll take you rafting, too.
[01:43:27] Adam Williams: I’ve only done that once, which I know is almost sacrilegious around here.
[01:43:31] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah.
[01:43:32] Adam Williams: Sometimes, especially when half the people have been rafting guides and I’m like, oh, I’ve only been out once with my family and it was such an amazing experience. So cool. We had a great guide. Jonny, thank you so much for this. I want to just, again, commend the vulnerability and the willingness to share and go so deep and on such big things that clearly, of course, you’re still feeling all these years later. And we’re coming up right at the 26th anniversary of Columbine, plus all the other experiences. I think what you’re modeling for masculinity is more of what we need right now. I see so much good in this and I’m glad you’re here and I thank you for talking with me.
[01:44:08] Johnny Buschmann: Yeah. I mean, thanks for having me on. Like, this is. This is. It feels special to even just sit down and have someone listen. Yeah.
[01:44:16] Adam Williams: Thanks, Johnny.
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Thank you for listening to the We Are Chaffee Podcast. You can learn more about this episode and others in the show notes at wearechaffeepod.com and on Instagram @wearechaffeepod.
I invite you to rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I also welcome your telling others about the We Are Chaffee Podcast. Help us to keep growing community and connection through conversation.
The We Are Chaffee Podcast is supported by Chaffee County Public Health. Thank you to Andrea Carlstrom, Director of Chaffee County Public Health and Environment, and to Lisa Martin, Community Advocacy Coordinator for the larger We Are Chaffee Storytelling Initiative.
Once again, I’m Adam Williams, host, producer and photographer for the We Are Chaffee Podcast. Till the next episode, as we say at We Are Chaffee, “share stories, make change.”
[outro music, horns and guitar instrumental]
