Mike Orrill | We Are Chaffee's Looking Upstream Podcast

Mike Orrill | Photograph by Adam Williams

Editor’s Note: This is from the monthly column for the We Are Chaffee Podcast, written by Adam Williams. The column is published in two newspapers local to Chaffee County, Colo.: the Chaffee County Times (Buena Vista) and The Mountain Mail (Salida).


Mike Orrill described himself as a poster child for doubt as we discussed faith and the dangers of certainty on the We Are Chaffee podcast. Orrill is formerly a Presbyterian pastor of 35 years, a faith leader in our community who accepts his doubts and puts them to work.

“I think doubts are really important,” Orrill said. “The moment we become really certain, whether it be matters of faith or politics or whatever, when we become really certain, maybe that’s when we begin to have conflicts with each other, because we’ve stopped listening. I celebrate people’s doubts, because I think that’s our growing edge. That’s where we learn.”

We released this episode of the podcast two years ago, but, of course, such a human vulnerability as self-doubt is as relevant now as it was then. Or at any time. So I’m going back to the well here. 

We talked about Orrill’s personal evolution during nearly 50 years as a man of faith. From fanatical believer who needed absolute answers to his questions to a transparently fallible human who has become relatively comfortable with life’s ambiguity. 

On the podcast, he shared how faith, belief in the afterlife, and even belief in God have never come easily to him. Orrill also shared his passion for the power of listening and storytelling, and what he’s learned about where answers to life’s questions actually come from. Among other things.

>

What is so amazing about this conversation is the honest, egoless way Orrill shares his story and perspectives. There’s no fear or pretense or facade in it, no pedestal or presumed expertise despite having had a faith leadership role at the head of a church congregation for decades. I deeply appreciate that.

Ideas of personal evolution or transformation came up a number of times as we talked. As an individual, and as a podcast host and 20-year professional conversationalist in various capacities, I’m interested in our experiences and the shaping influences in our lives. 

I’m interested in how they inform what becomes the arc of our lives. Where do we fall down? How do we rise up? We’re all flawed, presumably. I’m not sure what we even think perfection looks like. It’s a conjuring of human minds. 

What’s important, I think, is that we get over ourselves, and vulnerably acknowledge and even share with others honestly about those flaws. That’s where we connect as humans, with fallibility in common. I think denying our flaws actually harms our relationships, because then they aren’t rooted in honesty, self- and otherwise.

So with those mistakes, what do we learn from them and how does that affect those around us? Not least of whom might be our kids, the next generation we’re bringing up to, hopefully, do better. In whatever ways that might mean.

Orrill handled my questions, especially the ones that challenged faith, that laid bare my own doubts about organized religion and the experiences of my youth, so gracefully and, again, without fragile ego. He received my doubts with understanding, and by owning his own doubts.

“I have lots of doubts about faith,” he said. “And there would’ve been a time when I would’ve thought that made me a bad person … so I was the kind of person that had to live with certainty. I had to have answers to everything early on. That’s probably one of my biggest transformations over the years, is I can live with ambiguity now and it’s okay. 

“This won’t be popular among some of my more conservative religious friends, but I think that religion as it’s currently practiced in our society, and that includes the Christian faith, that includes Jewish, Muslim, whatever, I think a lot of that’s all human construct, the ways we put words to what’s something going on inside of us. And so I’m really okay with doubting the human construct.

“That’s pretty freeing for me. I don’t have to live within my own denominational doctrines. I don’t have to live within anybody else’s doctrine. I am free to pursue my own spirituality. I’m still very much part of the church. It’s part of my life and will always be part of my life. It’s important. But it’s also important to me to be able to express my doubts and say, ‘I’m not sure I buy that preacher.’”

I doubt the human construct of religion, as well. When I was 18, I finally could reject the forced Sunday morning church-going habits of my parents. And I have since. 

With that context, I tell you that my conversation with Orrill is the most honest, compassionate and understanding one I’ve ever had with a person whose life and vocation have been built on the bedrock of Christian faith (and doubt). 

Listen to the We Are Chaffee Podcast, with new conversations published weekly at wearechaffeepod.com and on all podcast players (e.g. Spotify, Apple Podcasts). It also airs on KHEN 106.9 FM community radio at 2 p.m. on Tuesdays.


Adam Williams is host, producer and photographer of the We Are Chaffee Podcast. Listen and subscribe to the monthly email newsletter at wearechaffeepod.com. Follow @wearechaffeepod on Instagram.