Tommy Gram-Ahlene | Photograph by Adam Williiams
Overview: Tommy Gram-Ahlene owns and operates two outdoor adventure businesses in the Arkansas Valley (Colo.): Whitewater Attainment and BV Mountain Adventures. He has built an extraordinary outdoor life and career resume during the past 20 years. He has become a go-to resource and instructor far beyond the valley, too, including teaching swiftwater rescue, kayak instructor training, packraft instructor training, avalanche education and wilderness medical courses. He’s a backcountry guide, as well.
Tommy and Adam Williams talk about the “wicked learning environment” that the wilderness can be, and about taking to heart the life-and-death responsibilities of being a guide and instructor in those spaces. They talk about how Tommy came to have so much experience and knowledge in the larger-scale mountain wilds of Colorado, having grown up in the upper Midwest. They also touch on Tommy’s perspectives on climate change and what might lie ahead for the outdoor industry and his businesses, which are dependent on seasonal snowpacks and river flows. Among other things.
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SHOW NOTES, LINKS, CREDITS & TRANSCRIPT
The We Are Chaffee podcast is supported by Chaffee County Public Health.
Along with being distributed on podcast listening platforms (e.g. Spotify, Apple), We Are Chaffee is broadcast weekly at 2 p.m. on Tuesdays, on KHEN 106.9 community radio FM in Salida, Colo.
Tommy Gram-Ahlene
Website: whitewaterattainment.com
Website: bvmountainadventures.com
Instagram: instagram.com/whitewater_attainment
Facebook: facebook.com/WhitewaterAttainment
Instagram: instagram.com/bvmountainadventures
Facebook: facebook.com/bvmountainadventures
We Are Chaffee Podcast
Website: wearechaffeepod.com
Instagram: instagram.com/wearechaffeepod
CREDITS
We Are Chaffee Host, Producer & Photographer: Adam Williams
We Are Chaffee Engineer: Jon Pray
We Are Chaffee Community Advocacy Coordinator: Lisa Martin
Director of Chaffee County Public Health and Environment: Andrea Carlstrom
TRANSCRIPT
Note: Transcripts are produced using an automated transcription app. Although it is largely accurate, minor errors inevitably exist.
[Intro music, guitar instrumental]
[00:00:11] Adam Williams: Welcome to the We Are Chaffee Podcast where we connect through conversations of community, humanness and well being in Chaffee County, Colorado. I’m Adam Williams.
Today I’m talking with Tommy Gram-Ahlene. Tommy owns and operates two outdoor adventure businesses here, Whitewater Attainment and BV Mountain Adventures. He has built an extraordinary outdoor life and career resume in the Arkansas Valley during the past 20 years and actually he has become a go to resource and instructor far beyond the valley too, including teaching swift water rescue kayak instructor training, packraft instructor training avalanche education, and wilderness medical courses. He’s a backcountry guide as well. He’s many things and I’m sure there’s a lot to unpack in all of those respective areas to really break down Tommy’s collection of skills and knowledge. Obviously, I think it’s impressive.
We do our best to dig into some of these areas in this hour, like avalanche education. I know virtually nothing about how to safely move in the backcountry during the winter, so I don’t. I think I’m what Tommy would call unconsciously incompetent in that regard. If you’re like me, curious but unsure about how to get started in backcountry skiing, for example, today we get to learn a little from an expert.
Tommy and I also talk about the wicked learning environment that the wilderness can be and about taking to heart the life and death responsibilities of being a guide and instructor in those spaces. We talk about how Tommy came to so much experience and knowledge at all in the larger scale mountain wilds of Colorado, having grown up in the upper Midwest.
We also touch on his perspectives on climate change and what might lie ahead for the outdoor industry and his businesses, which are dependent on seasonal snowpacks and river flows, among other things.
The We Are Chaffee Podcast is supported by Chaffee County Public health. Go to wearechaffeepod.com for all things related to this podcast, including transcripts, links and photos related to this episode and nearly 90 others in the archive.
Now here we go with Tommy Gram-Ahlene.
[Transition music, guitar instrumental]
Adam Williams: So you’ve been traveling and busy with a lot of stuff lately. I think that you’ve been to Alaska not long ago, maybe even Montana. I have no idea where else. And I’m just curious, what is it that’s keeping you so busy and in demand right now?
[00:02:44] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: So yeah, like you said, we’re in Alaska. Last month, end of this month, we were up in kind of West Glacier, Montana, and then we were just down in New Mexico and just got back a couple days ago and ran kind of like a local course here and yeah, I’m actually about to head down to Texas too. So as far as it goes, just like traveling to run professional training courses. So anywhere from swift water rescue to kayak instructor training, pack raft instructor training and wilderness medical courses. So yeah, it’s been a blast. This has been probably our busiest season traveling and my wife Ashley has the ability, works remotely, is able to come along with, so gets us the ability to have, you know, know, adventure while we’re traveling too, which has been pretty great.
And yeah, we started off with, you know, just some lighter traveling accounts last year and we decided to make more of a go of it this year. So it’s been a, been a pretty phenomenal experience so far.
[00:03:50] Adam Williams: You’re covering some real range of geography there. We got Alaska, New Mexico, Texas is coming up. Yeah, that’s, that’s covering some territory in terms of, I mean, the landscape and things that you’re part of. But I assume, you know, when we’re focusing at this time of year on water and river. Yeah, that’s the one common thread through all of it is that going to these places to get on the water.
[00:04:14] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah, for the most part. Like I think our earlier trip to New Mexico, we were working with the outfitter down there offering wilderness first responder recertification. So that’s like a professional level, you know, wilderness medical course for guides, outfitters, that type of thing. And then Alaska, we got up there and did some paddle sports instruction. So we ran a swift water rescue instructor course and a pack crafting instructor course and we’re working with the Alaska pack craft school up there. Really great folks.
Pete, Jewel and Justin run the show up there and they’ve been super awesome to partner with over the last few years. And they, Pete and Jewel are actually working on becoming instructor trainers with the American Canoe association, who we train instructors for. So that’s been also kind of cool of spreading kind of like the ACA curriculum throughout, you know, the United States and they don’t have a ton of action up there in Alaska, so really neat. Pretty soon they’re going to have two new instructor trainers up that way.
[00:05:21] Adam Williams: What is making you so in demand specifically that you are having to travel more or less around the country to do this as opposed to there being more of the instructors who are capable of the expertise that you have?
[00:05:33] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: I think one thing, there’s not a ton of instructor trainers and I really tried to like kind of diversify my skill set. So that way it’s like not Just not just river, but like also this like wilderness medical component to it as well too. Just because, like, you know, if you’re a guide or an outfitter, you. You want either yourself or your employees or staff to be trained and certified to do what they’re doing on the water as well as be able to respond in an emergency situation. So I think that’s really kind of made us slightly different than, you know, a lot of other people kind of doing similar things out there is we’re trying to be like a one stop shop. Like not only can we, you know, show you the skills and, you know, technical stuff about boating, river rescue, but we can also show you how to maybe treat and manage a patient where you get them out of the water or wintertime, out of the, out of the snow or whatever. So kind of a cool thing.
And I would say that’s like kind of one of our biggest new things that we’re really trying to hit home is the wilderness medical side of things. And that’s actually what brought us down to New Mexico last week. We’re working with a remote power company they’re building, actually, I think it’s the largest wind energy project in the United States. And they’re just in really remote locations. They’ve had a few incidences and takes a couple hours to like get someone to the hospital. So we’re teaching, you know, construction workers also how to respond in an emergency situation. So that’s been fun. A little bit, you know, different. I’ve got a little bit of a construction background, but neat. Working with maybe not our typical client who’s going to be a raft guide or ski guide or, you know, anything like that.
[00:07:22] Adam Williams: You’re setting me up perfectly here for one of the key questions I have for you, which has to do with this range of expertise you have. It is really diverse. I would imagine that somebody with your training for avalanche rescue and safety and being a backcountry skiing guide, and then you also would have this other lane where you’re talking about water and the kayaking instruction and safety and all of these things. I could see those being totally separate people.
But you have this whole range of expertise that I don’t know how you keep it all straight and keep yourself, you know, on top of whatever might be, you know, innovative in the field. And yeah, it, it just seems like you have this huge resume that is extraordinary. Am I right in assessing that as unusual, or do you feel like it’s kind of common that if you’re into one, you’re into the other.
[00:08:15] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: I think part of it is like kind of the Arkansas River Valley is really a place that you can kind of like do, do everything. And even sometimes a year, you can like really do everything, like in a single day if you really wanted to, like, you could go up, go backcountry skiing, get on the river and go mountain biking. So I think like in that realm, this has been like a great like training ground to, you know, get into all of these outdoor things. And also I think just been at it for a long time. Like I got I think my first like outdoor level certification when I was like 20 or 21, something like that. And I’m 41 now, so I’ve been at it for, for, you know, 20 years or so. And it hasn’t always been full time work.
Like I said before, I worked in the construction industry for a while, while I was like kind of getting, getting into all of, all of this, you know, training and whatnot. And it’s just one thing led to another and it was like, all right, if I’m going to do this for a living, I gotta, you know, just make it happen. And that’s kind of what’s been going on over like the last 10 years or so. So it’s been, been pretty amazing. Met some really awesome, amazing people and you know, had some really great mentors as well too, which I think know in the outdoor world, like you can get a lot of different certifications that say like, yeah, you can do these things, which that’s cool and great place to start.
But I think, you know, like the people I like to work with and whatnot are just like incredibly experienced out there. And I think that experience level kind of like shines through over like the being certified or, you know, whatever. So luckily I’ve gotten to work with a lot of those incredibly experienced people and draw from kind of like their high level of training as well and level of experience working with clients and you know, dealing with maybe a unideal or bad situation out in the backcountry or whatever. And that’s, you know, I think what’s kind of kept me on, on top of things, which has been really cool. I think learning from experience is probably one of the greater things you can take away in the outdoor industry, probably just in life in general too.
[00:10:26] Adam Williams: It’s one thing to go through training to be able to say, I have this certification, it’s on my resume or it’s whatever.
[00:10:34] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah.
[00:10:35] Adam Williams: It’s another to be able to actually have confidence that you could Go out and apply these things and then you’re stacking all of these things up and you’re teaching others and you have the responsibility of two businesses in these areas we’re talking about with snow and water. So you’re actually having to apply and truly have the confidence to have responsibility for people’s well being out in the wild in your hands.
[00:11:01] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah. And I think, like, I take that to heart of like, okay, like, you know, if I’m training professionals or training recreationalists, like, what, what do they need to be successful out there and make good decisions and, and you know, I spent years as a guide as well, just like taking people out, showing them a good time.
And I would say kind of like the education piece of it all is like the next level of like, okay, I’m not just, you know, in my own head showing these people a good time, but now it’s like, okay, I’m showing people how to get out in the backcountry or on the river and you know, have a, have a good time for themselves and be safe out there. So I think definitely comes with some responsibility and try to take that to heart as much as possible and just stay on the up and up. I try to, you know, get out on the river and you know, in the snow as much as possible personally too, which I think is a super important part to the job.
[00:12:01] Adam Williams: Where did the confidence come from though, to have those people’s safety in your hands? Because you said you’ve been doing this around 20 years and I’m thinking you’ve gone through a period of life here where at 20 or 21, I certainly might have been a little naive in what that responsibility was. Maybe wouldn’t have been as engaged with that as where I would be at 41. And of course when you put in there 20 years of experience, I mean, that’s going to accumulate a lot for you. But I’m wondering about that road of gaining confidence, to take that to heart and really be equipped to know when you go out there, whatever happens today, I know that I can handle this and make sure everybody gets home.
[00:12:42] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah, I think kind of with that would be some of it would go back to working with my mentors. Like, I didn’t like get out there right away as like a young 21 year old, you know, new kayak instructor or whatever and you know, like just start teaching on my own. Uh, I was lucky enough to work with a lot of good people back in the Midwest, where I actually came from to start with, who were great Kayak instructors for a couple of, you know, clubs back in the Midwest.
And then from there got the opportunity to kind of like, travel around and work for a few different places before settling down here in the Arkansas River Valley. And I think just like that experience level and also maybe kind of like seeing some things go wrong in a slightly controlled environment with, you know, my mentors and whatnot, has helped set me up for success. And then, I don’t know, just like any type of job where you have to, like, manage risk for other people or whatever, that could even go be like a financial planner, right? You’re, you’re managing risk for your clients so they don’t lose all their money or whatever.
It kind of works in a similar way of like, okay, let me get the big picture about what’s going on as far as, like, the environment goes. Get the big picture as far as the people I’m going out with. And then there’s always kind of like a level of uncertainty. So it’s like, okay, you know, new to the terrain, these are some wild weather conditions or don’t really know the people very well. So instead of, you know, taking, you know, like a, you know, big step into something pretty committing, it’s. It’s like, okay, let’s, you know, get to know each other a little bit better, get to know the terrain and set some margins in between us and like, the big stuff until we know, okay, our, you know, my student skills are good to go.
I’m really comfortable in, like, the terrain or section of river that I’m taking the people on, all that stuff. And I think that’s a big piece to. It just is like managing risk and setting margins and also, like, when you’re out there sticking to them too. Um, it’s super easy, I think, to like, look at, you know, like, sunny day out backcountry skiing and be like, oh, wow. Well, that line across the valley looks really good. I know we talked about not skiing it. So along with, you know, you’re doing your pre trip plan, staying aware while you’re out there, you gotta stick with your plan, which is a big thing.
[00:15:10] Adam Williams: Are you saying when you see that line, hey, that looks good?
[00:15:13] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah.
[00:15:13] Adam Williams: That wasn’t part of our plan.
[00:15:14] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: That wasn’t part of our plan.
[00:15:15] Adam Williams: Don’t go do it.
[00:15:17] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah. And I think it’s like, we try to really teach people, like, to not make decisions like, in the heat of the moment. Right. It would be ideal, like, if you and I were meeting up to go backcountry Skiing or get on the water, just to, like, grab a cup of coffee beforehand and be like, all right, this is the plan. We’re. We’re both kind of agreeing to it. Maybe we shake hands on it or, you know, in the avalanche world, write it down in our field book as, like, a trip plan.
And then from there we have kind of like, you know, this, like, checklist we’re following of like, okay, this is the terrain that we have open for the day. This is what we have closed or going to. Like more of a river environment. Like, this is how we decided to run this particular rapid or whatever. And then, you know, sticking to that plan, not being like, ah, yeah, I know we talked about it this morning, but it is looking mighty fine over there. Let’s go ahead and open it up. Just because it’s like, you could be kind of tied up in the, you know, the excitement of the moment and maybe not thinking super clearly or super objectively at that point once you’re out in the field.
[00:16:17] Adam Williams: Well, yeah. I’m wondering, though, if. If you’re saying, well, it looks good, what’s the difference between making it okay to do that and then, like, why stay to that plan in a rigid way when what you’re saying is, well, to my eyes right now on site, that that line to ski looks good. Let’s go there. Like, what, why. Why do you think the impulsiveness, nature of making that decision that changes the plan is a no, No?
[00:16:45] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: I think because it’s one of those deals. It’s like, okay, maybe we needed a little bit more information to, like, open up that line just to, like, see how the snow is responding to, like, a. A new load or something like that. Right? We’re like, okay, it is responding actually pretty well to the new load.
I still think, like, having that in your pocket and that’s like, your margin you’re setting right of like, you know, like, we. We kind of said we don’t want to go over there. Maybe we could talk about it, you know, as we debrief our day and if we want to get out there tomorrow, maybe we could open it up then. But trying to kind of stick to what you put out towards yourself. And you said kind of like having, like, a more rigid plan. I think of it too, is like, have a plan that has, like, options where, you know, like, hey, I’ve got this piece of terrain that I’m leaving open, this piece of terrain I’m leaving open, and this one.
So, you know, I’ve really got like, three choices, which is really cool. But hey, this and this and this are closed. And we’re not going to go over there without, you know, some. Getting some further information or you’ve done some prep work. Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:52] Adam Williams: When you’ve made that plan, you’re like, well, I already know. Yeah, okay, totally.
[00:17:56] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: And if you get to one thing, you’re like, oh, man, it’s not very good over here. It’s like, I got. I still have a few other options. Right. And that’s also kind of like the, the margins that we’re trying to build into things. Things.
[00:18:06] Adam Williams: I don’t know if this is a great one to one comparison or not, but I’m thinking now of reading something like John Krakauer Into Thin Air up on Everest. And, you know, one of the key things, I don’t know if you’re familiar with that story at all, but a lot of climbers died on Everest on the same day. Storms came in and so on. There were a lot of issues around this. But one of the key things, whether it’s that event or any day on Everest, for example, is that when you make a plan to say, if we are not to the summit or to whatever point by this time of the day, you turn around.
[00:18:40] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah.
[00:18:41] Adam Williams: Because your life will be in danger when people have pushed past that plan and they say, no, I’ve got to go get the summit. I paid a lot of money to be here. And things go badly because they suddenly decided that, you know, their, their ambition was going to outrule the weather system coming in or whatever.
[00:19:01] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah. And that I, I would say we call like in the avalanche world, like heuristic traps or human factors, that type of thing. I almost don’t like those terms. Like, part of it is just like being human. Right. We all kind of like live in our own subjective reality. We’re not like super objective thinkers.
So that’s why, kind of like what you’re saying, like having that, you know, solid plan, having the ability to kind of adapt in that plan is going to help you kind of stick with it out there. Right. And yeah, like, things can get interesting, you know, different humans interacting with other humans could get interesting out there. And from what I found, that’s where potentially things, maybe nothing happens. And I don’t know, we think about that too, of like, all right, nothing happened. Did I just get lucky? I think that’s an important thing to note.
A lot of environments, like rivers, mountains, it’s kind of like a wicked learning environment. Environment where you might not get immediate Feedback. If you did something wrong, it might have been like, oh, well, that might have been close, or maybe nothing happened at all. So that could maybe even reinforce some of those maybe like bad decision making properties.
[00:20:11] Adam Williams: So you might have no idea how close you came to it going very bad.
[00:20:15] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Totally, totally. Maybe you decided to ski a steeper line or something like that. Like, here in Colorado, we have really bad kind of persistent slab avalanche problem that just kind of lingers throughout the. Throughout the year. And it’s just, you know, weak snow at the bottom of the snowpack, and we get kind of periods in between where the snow kind of becomes more and more weak. It like facets out, becomes like sugar. It can support weight on top of it. But if a skier kind of comes by, it might actually, like, overload that weak layer and could be like, all right, well, I stayed on a really thick slab the whole entire time.
Didn’t trigger the weak layer. But, you know, 30ft to my left was, you know, this shallow rocky band, and I just didn’t hit that and didn’t trigger a big avalanche. So those are kind of like the things we’re hoping to impart onto students to take home of like, yeah, maybe it did go well, but did you just get lucky or did you make good decisions?
[00:21:12] Adam Williams: You mentioned growing up in the Midwest or at least that that’s where you came up with some of your canoeing and kayaking experience. I’d like to go back to that, that piece of your life and find out a little bit of how you got started in the outdoors. What drew you into these water sports and then ultimately mountain sports.
[00:21:31] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah, so my parents really liked things like skiing. We had like a local ski hill as well as, like, cross country skiing nearby us. They also were into canoeing. A lot of flat water canoeing up in, like, the Boundary Waters, I think. I’m not sure if it’s a national park or not, but Boundary Waters kind of nature preserve up in Minnesota, right on the border of Canada.
[00:22:00] Adam Williams: Was Minnesota where you were from, or Wisconsin?
[00:22:01] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Wisconsin. So they would spend time up there before we were born. And then as we were kids, my sister and I, we’d be, you know, going along on canoe trips and camping and things of that nature, like, you know, every other weekend or something like that, you know, through throughout summer. And my parents would also like to, like, travel a lot. So we’d go on like a, you know, big western road trip or, you know, whatever, out to Montana or Wyoming or Colorado or whatever as kids too, which was really neat. Got to See kind of a lot of the United States that way. And I think that inspired some of, like, the, you know, both my sister and I kind of like, like doing things in the outdoors, but that, like, kind of inspired some of that, like, adventurous spirit and whatnot.
[00:22:49] Adam Williams: You were a sponsored kayaker when you were pretty young too, right? As a teenager, when?
[00:22:54] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: I’m trying to think, that was in my twenties as well. But I was sponsored by a company called Fluid Kayaks. A good friend of mine, Daniel Glauser, he lives on the Front Range, and he kind of put together this, like, Colorado team of kayakers that he thought were really good.
He kind of like, worked as a sales rep for the company, and he, you know, promoted us to travel around, do all these, like, kind of competitions and whatnot. And it was pretty fun, you know, got to see a lot of Colorado and got to go to a few other states and stuff with that as well.
And competition is definitely, like, an interesting thing, I would say. I’m not like a overly competitive person per se, but the cool thing I found, like, it, you know, just like, drives you to try to get to, like, a good level of performance. It’s like, okay, if I’m racing down this section of river, I want to be super dialed in it, you know, and my own safety is at stake if I’m not dialed in it too, you know. So that was an interesting experience to. To have as like a, you know, younger person in their 20s.
It was definitely like a blast to get the opportunity to do it. Turns out you don’t really make any money as a sponsored whitewater kayaker, so had to search for other means. And that’s, you know, getting into like, instruction and stuff like that was like, okay, this is kind of cool. I can still be on the river. I get to talk to people. I might not be, you know, racing down some gnarly section of water or whatever, but still awesome to be out and kind of, you know, share what I enjoy about whitewater kayaking or kind of the other sports that I do with people.
[00:24:33] Adam Williams: How did you build those skills that had you ready for the rivers out here in Colorado compared to whatever you might have known in Wisconsin?
[00:24:40] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: In Wisconsin, there actually is a bit of like a whitewater kayaking scene, which is cool. Really tight knit community of people. And then kind of further north from there, like getting into the UP Of Michigan and Minnesota, there’s also a decent amount of boaters up there. They actually have similar to us, like a snow melt season up there and you know, all these kind of crazy little, like, rivers and creeks that, you know, dump into Lake Superior up there or, you know, some decent white water in, like, central and northern Wisconsin, too.
So almost every weekend I was, you know, traveling around, getting on the water with, you know, friends or just people that were maybe part of, like, a Midwest boating club or something like that back there, and that was a blast. And then actually met a really good friend of mine. He actually moved to Colorado slightly before me, but Pete Belend, he was kind of one of the drivers in, like, getting me to go to, like, the. He lived in Chicago. So we would meet and, you know, drive like, 12 hours down to, like, West Virginia and go boating down there for the weekend or whatever, and then drive straight back and get back home and get to work on Monday morning. So he was kind of the first person that, you know, encouraged me to get on, like, some harder whitewater, you know, back on the east coast and whatnot, which was super fun. And then he moved out here and was like, hey, you should check out Colorado. So he was another kind of driving factor of, you know, me coming out here and whatnot.
[00:26:11] Adam Williams: When you were that younger kayaker and you were sponsored and not necessarily making a great living at that time, but did you have a vision of what you wanted your life to unfold as? Did you see these businesses that you have now and living this outdoor life as part of that?
[00:26:28] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: No, not really. I guess, kind of, like, at that time, it was almost like I was living in my Subaru, traveling around, that type of thing, and just kind of living day by day. And, you know, if, like, a little opportunity to, like, make some money, teach kayaking kind of came up or whatever, that would be. Be awesome for a little while. I’d go back to Wisconsin in the winter and work for this ski and bike shop that I worked at, you know, in even younger, younger years, and, you know, just try to save as much money as I could to come back out west and, you know, go get on some other cool rivers.
So, yeah, it was, like a thing for a few years. I didn’t really know whereit would go. And then I would say kind of just getting more and more into the instruction side of things. I was like, all right, this is really cool. And got a chance to work for some different outfitters and actually was invested in kind of like another outfitter for a while. I don’t know. It wasn’t, like, the greatest fit and ended up just going my own direction. Kind of never really looked back since been pretty, pretty awesome of, you know, just kind of bootstrapping whitewater attainment together from really not much saving our pennies. And we bought a truck and a trailer and, you know, some boats and got some permits to teach in various different kind of locations. And that was super, super neat. And along that same time, that’s when I met Chris Nice Warner, who. He was the founder of BV Mountain Adventures. So he started that 10 or so years ago. And I knew him.
He was working up at Spring Canyon, running kind of like an outdoor program at that camp. And he would come into the trailhead retail store, which I work part time there, too. He would always, like, be renting gear, buying gear for the program. So got to know him. Him and I, I think, went, you know, just like, backcountry skiing, skiing for fun a couple times. And then he came into the store one day and was like, hey, you know, I put this, you know, proposal together to get permits to do some guided backcountry skiing.
Would you want to get involved in this at all? And I was like, yeah, that sounds actually pretty awesome. So I was his first employee there, which was pretty fun, just over the last two seasons. Now, Chris, he’s got his hands in a lot of other things. He owns, like, a cactus greenhouse house. He also owns, like, a corporate leadership company, and both of those businesses have been doing really well and taking a lot of his time. And he was like, hey, you’ve been kind of, like, running BV Mountain Adventures the last few years, like, why don’t you become the majority owner? So we were able to negotiate that. And he’s still partner in the company as well. But I guess, like, meeting Chris as I was, like, starting whitewater attainment as well, too.
He has really awesome, like, kind of business background. He was in the US Marines for a long time and then got out and got a business degree. And I don’t know, just. He’s a person that I’ve learned a lot about just communication with other people, a lot of really kind of skills that I couldn’t exactly put my finger on. But he’s been a great mentor to me in the business world, for sure.
[00:29:43] Adam Williams: Because your parents were also into canoeing and being on water and so much camping time and all of that. Were they excited that you were pursuing these things and living out of your Subaru for a while and being this sponsored kayaker, just living it up and having a great time?
[00:29:58] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah, they thought it was a little bit weird, you know, like, I had, like, A decent job for a while, working as a heating and air conditioning technician, so repairing heaters and air conditioners. It paid well. And kayak construction was just kind of like a thing I would do here and there, helping out with clubs and whatnot. I think they’re a little bit surprised of like, oh, wow, you’re going to, like, leave this good job that you have that you’re, you know, making decent money at, and you’re going to go travel around and go kayaking. I think, you know, at the start, they were like, you know, he’s young, he’s got time to kind of get back to a career or something like that. So they were pretty incredibly supportive of it. I would say that was definitely helpful. I think if a lot of kind of like, you know, people I grew up with were like, hey, no, that sounds like a bad idea. What are you doing, man? You’re going to leave this job to go be a bum and live in your Subaru and travel around and kayak?
That doesn’t sound like a good, you know, career move or whatever, but pretty cool to, you know, have support around that from. From my family and being like, yeah, go ahead, go do it. I think my grandparents were a little bit surprised of like, oh, wow, you’re. You’re leaving a good job. Like, why would you ever do that? So maybe I got some more of the resistance from. From them, but other than that, I think overwhelmingly pretty supportive as far as my family goes. And then as I kind of, like, learned more and more about it and, you know, got into building my businesses, it’s like, oh, wow. I can actually, you know, pay me bills doing this and stuff like that. It’s been. Been pretty great. Like, my wife is now super involved with the businesses.
Ashley, she does all of our kind of communications, marketing, design work as well as just kind of like, runs the office and keeps all of that stuff going smooth, which I would say is not my strong suit. But, yeah, it’s been really awesome that she’s been super supportive through all this as well, too. You know, I think without some of that support and people being like, yeah, you should keep doing it. You’re doing an awesome job, or, you know, whatever. It would be more challenging. For sure.
[00:32:00] Adam Williams: You don’t get to where you are now if you don’t go through those steps. Of all the learning and all the education, all the experience and all the things when people are maybe saying, oh, man, you left a good job, but look where you are now and you’re getting to live this life that, you know, all the people, people who say, no, you need to stick with the conventional, the one that’s relatively secure, the one where we can have a perception that this is a secure livelihood, don’t go have the adventure, because that’s just going to throw it all away. Those are all people who aren’t necessarily living some sort of passion driven life of purpose where they’re getting to enjoy every day like you are.
[00:32:40] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah. And it’s kind of interesting. Like, I get it from a lot of people. They’re like, hey, that must be really nice to be able to go, you know, kayak or backcountry ski every day or whatever. And it’s like, well, I did have to sacrifice a good bit to do it. Like, I had to live in a car, like, you know, not have much money in my bank account for many years, you know, all that stuff.
[00:33:01] Adam Williams: So, yeah, people see where you are now.
[00:33:04] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:04] Adam Williams: And they don’t. And that’s the thing is I, I think a lot of times people want the adventure. They think that’s sad. Sounds like, you know, this, this sort of sexy, romantic, amazing dream come true and they kind of gloss over and aren’t really even aware, of course of the details of what it took for you to get here.
[00:33:21] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah. And it’s been kind of grinding away at like two decades of trying to get the experience and, you know, different training, certifications and all sorts of stuff, so. But honestly, I wouldn’t really trade it for anything.
[00:33:36] Adam Williams: How many times did you want to throw it in and be like, you know what? I’m gonna go back to heating and.
[00:33:39] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Cooling, man, There, there’s been a couple times for sure where it’s just like, oh, man. Like, my wife and I bought a house, I think it’s like seven years ago or so now.
And at that point I was actually working for a different company. It was really hard for me to be super present with like the remodel of the house and, you know, all of that stuff. And at that point was like, wow. It was. It would be nice just to like, maybe not be working seasonally and just get like a regular paycheck. So I knew, you know, myself and my, you know, wife had good solid income coming in while we were particularly like, doing this project and getting loans. Turns out people at the bank don’t really like someone who doesn’t get a paycheck for a couple months every year because they’re a seasonal worker too. But, you know, we, we worked through it and made it all happen.
[00:34:28] Adam Williams: I want to learn more about the avalanche piece of things because that seems like a daunting area of expertise to have. It’s just there’s so much risk to it, at least if you don’t know what you’re doing and you’re going into the wrong places and doing it the wrong way.
[00:34:43] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah.
[00:34:44] Adam Williams: And so I really admire that people around here go out into the backcountry that they know what they’re doing and I know nothing. So it seems like a silly question here, because I don’t know if there is a short version of this, but can you give me the gist of how it works to assess whether any particular area, let’s say a slope you want to go on today, is it going to be safe? How do you go about that? How do you determine that?
[00:35:14] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: So I think it kind of boils down to any, like, risk management process. It’s like, all right, let’s get the big picture of, like, what I’m up against. So it’s really kind of like three questions. What could go wrong? How bad could it be? And what can I do about it? And that’s kind of like what we teach our students as well, too, to, like, go through this process of like, okay, what could go wrong? Let’s get a big picture. And, you know, as far as, like, avalanche, you know, training goes, get the big picture. Let’s take a look at the, you know, avalanche forecast. Here in Colorado, we’re super lucky. We’ve got a super amazing avalanche forecast that’s put out every evening for the day before.
So really great information that’s going to tell us, like, what type of weather am I up against out there? What type of, you know, avalanche problems do I have? So really kind of cool. And also, like, what are our forecasters kind of saying? The general, like, avalanche danger are. So they also give, like, a summary of what we’re up against as well, which is, you know, just some verbiage about, you know, the current conditions, observations they’re making, and kind of like, how they got to the current danger rating and the current avalanche problem. So really great to, like, take all of that information, be like, okay, now I know what I’m up against, what could go wrong? And then also a little bit about, like, how bad could it be? Right, right.
So that forecast potentially tells me what terrain to avoid, what terrain could be, you know, good to go. And honestly, here in Colorado, biggest thing we can kind of do for ourselves since we have kind of that persistent slab avalanche problem I mentioned earlier.
Is really kind of like play terrain in our favor. So generally speaking, not always, but we be quite rare. Avalanches don’t really form. Or we could still have bad snowpack structure on a low angle slope, but we need a steeper slope angle for the snow actually to slide downhill. So in the avalanche world, we say that’s above 30 degrees in steepness. So you could actually go out in the backcountry and choose terrain that’s less than 30 degrees. And that kind of like, goes to that last question. Question, what can we do about it? It’s like, well, let’s just choose appropriate terrain for the day. So let’s go to, you know, slopes that are, you know, less steep and have a good time skiing low angle powder. And on certain days, it might be like, okay, I’m skiing adjacent to a steep slope, but I’m not on the steep slope.
Certain days it might be like, hey, I’m gonna stay far, far away from that steep slope because I’m worried that it could hit me or whatever. So that’s kind of like the. The long and short of it is, like, what could go wrong here are, like, the different problems that we’re up against. How bad could it be? All right, that’s like our danger rating. And then what can I do about it? All right, I’m going to choose appropriate terrain for that given day. That’s our biggest risk management tool as backcountry skiers, for sure.
[00:38:16] Adam Williams: I think that what I’m picturing as part of my question is because I have seen photos or something from training sessions where people are cutting away a section of snow, and they’re looking at the layers.
And what I’ve always wondered is, how do you do that? Just this. Whatever size it is, maybe it’s a few feet by a few feet sort of section that you’re working with and looking at, and extrapolate that out to be like, okay, this whole mountain side in front of me, this little piece I’m sampling, tells me everything I need to know to be safe up there.
[00:38:47] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah, so that’s the other tricky part as far as just how the snowpack, like, covers the mountains. It’s incredibly variable. So particularly here in Colorado, we get, like, a lot of wind drifting. So we might have a slope that has like, zero centimeters of snow on it. And then just adjacent to that, there could be like 150cm of snow. So kind of crazy.
[00:39:10] Adam Williams: I don’t know how to translate centimeters in my head.
[00:39:13] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: So 100 centimeters would be three feet. Okay, so yeah, yeah, totally, totally. Sorry. Snow science world. We talk in centimeters and Celsius and all the other stuff. So, yeah, so it could be, like, really deep snow, really shallow snow in certain areas.
So we really try to encourage students. And even myself as a guide, like, I’ll dig snow pits in the snow, and I’ll try actually to get, like, a sampling of them. I’ll. I’ll walk around, maybe dig, like, a bunch of little mini snow pits with my hand, not even get my shovel out. Poke around with my ski pole, see if I can kind of feel for different layering. And that’s getting me better information to know what I’m dealing with as far as, like, spatial variability of, like, oh, wow, below tree line. I was seeing this depth of snow. Feels like that weak layer is there. I got to, like, the near tree line zone. Maybe I changed aspects, the direction that the mountain’s actually facing.
I noticed, like, there’s a little bit more wind loading in the snow here. It’s definitely kind of, kind of thicker, that type of thing. And I’m still feeling that weak layer. So that’s telling me, like, there’s a lot more, you know, snow on top of that weak layer. Maybe it’s harder to trigger, but if I do trigger it, it could go really, really big. You know, making decisions off the snowpack is a really kind of, like, challenging thing. And even, like myself and some of our most important experience guides at BV Mountain Adventures, we try to get information from other sources, not just the source that we’re, you know, digging out there. So could be like, you dug a snow pit in a weird location. You didn’t get any, like, results on any of your tests or anything like that. But the forecast is still saying it’s, like, high avalanche danger. So at that point, I would be like, okay, I’ve got even a higher level of uncertainty because of what I found in my snow pit. Doesn’t really mean I’m going to, like, go open up the big line because I didn’t get any test results.
[00:41:06] Adam Williams: Are you digging a snow pit every time you go out? No, because that’s what I’ve always imagined is that’s what you’re having to do.
[00:41:12] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: No, I think if you. So luckily for me, my job, like, teaching requires me to dig snow pits. I think really important for students to kind of, like, see and feel layering in the snow. Maybe they even see, like, a column of snow collapse during a test or whatever.
We’re not teaching them to be, like, experts or make decisions off of what they’re digging in the snow. But really neat for them to see in that kind of like ties, like, oh, wow. I did see the persistent weak layer. I saw a slab of snow up above it. Like, that makes total sense to me now, so that’s cool. So for my job, I get to dig in the snow all the time. So, like, mentally throughout the winter, I’m like, tied to it, if that makes sense. Like, I generally know what’s going on.
Maybe I go for a trip somewhere else, you know, know, different range or something. I might dig around a little bit more there to investigate it. But if you’re kind of tracking the season’s conditions, you should, you know, with some experience and time, be able to kind of build a. A bit of a mental model of what the snowpack is underneath you so that way you don’t have to dig every single time you go out. And then, I don’t know, digging. Like I said, great educational tool for people to kind of learn. And then maybe springtime here comes in Colorado and we’re like, okay, it’s been warmer.
The snow pack is actually starting to kind of set up a little bit and I’ll become one layer. I feel like it might be time for me to step out into some bigger terrain. Maybe I dig a snow pit and just kind of make sure, like, what the avalanche forecast is saying is what I’m seeing in that exact drainage that I’m going to potentially ski this bigger line in. So becomes like a little mini mission, maybe even the day before I’m going to go ski something bigger to go out, get some good information.
Hey, does it line up with what all of the other data points and kind of the forecast that I’ve been seeing? If it doesn’t, it might be like, all right, I’m going to go ski low angle terrain for a couple, couple more weeks or a couple more days and kind of see if things kind of round out. So we’re kind of using it as a tool to just clarify levels of uncertainty and what’s going on in the snow. Does that kind of make sense?
[00:43:16] Adam Williams: I think it does within the context of how little I know. And I’m trying to just grab a hold and you’re countering some of what my imagination has been here. Right. Which is, oh, I think you have to go dig a pit every time. And then somehow that magically just translates everything on the slope.
[00:43:33] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah.
[00:43:33] Adam Williams: So if I look at the. The right site, which I think is it Colorado Avalanche Information Center.
[00:43:39] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:43:40] Adam Williams: The CAIC is a site that I’ve looked at before.
[00:43:44] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah.
[00:43:45] Adam Williams: And, and they’ll, they’ll, they’ll color code different zones within the state and the level of risk involved.
[00:43:54] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah, yeah. So every kind of like backcountry area in the state. They will have forecasters go out, check out conditions, look for recent avalanches, whether they be human triggered or natural avalanches, and come up with a bit of a kind of plan.
They actually use this really scientific tool called the conceptual model of avalanche hazard. It’s a really weighty research paper and system, but they try to be as objective as possible. If they’re like, okay, we’re calling it high danger rating for the day and we’ve got these problems. It’s like we’ve, they’ve definitely been out there, They’ve observed those problems, they’ve observed those type of avalanches. And also like high danger goes along with kind of the saying of natural avalanches are likely. Human triggered avalanches are very likely. So they can kind of pull that away by looking at the facts of different observations.
And I would say like, the better data they get, the better the forecast they’re going to put out as well too. So, so really cool thing as far as like backcountry skiers go. Here in Colorado you can actually submit observations to the forecasters of the caic. They’ll take a look at them and be like, oh wow, I’m really glad that so and so went up to, you know, Graham Gulch today and got some good info. I wasn’t able to get up there more pieces of information help them create a more accurate forecast. So really kind of cool. I would say we have a pretty good community of, you know, people here in the Saguache Range that submit observations from what I’ve seen.
[00:45:32] Adam Williams: I think like we do with a lot of things when we are ignorant, we just don’t know about it. We fill in with fear.
[00:45:39] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yes.
[00:45:39] Adam Williams: Right. So I think of this incredibly scary, daunting thing that if I were to go into the backcountry and skin around and want to, you know, ski down, I see everything as ultimate danger because I know nothing of, of any of the science or how to assess the circumstances other than to look at the CAIC site.
[00:46:02] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah. And I think that’s kind of like one thing as well too. I know like my first avalanche course that I ever took this is many years ago, I got the crap scared out of me. I was like, holy cow, mountains want to kill me. And I think like one like you Know, we want to have like a healthy expect, but we don’t want to be like paralyzed in fear that we don’t even want to go out into the backcountry.
So that’s what we’re really trying to like kind of hit home with our avalanche courses of like, yeah, the mountains can be a scary place. But you know, if you learn about it and gain some experience, you’re going to be able to make some good decisions and kind of replace that fear with just like a healthy respect and be able to go out there still maybe even a considerable or high danger day and go have some fun.
[00:46:53] Adam Williams: I think part of the thing, especially for those of us who live around here, where you can get into actual wild, into real life things and dangers, whereas so much even at national parks or things, some of the stuff gets so sterilized that there are railings going down, you know, narrow trails and cliffsides and stuff. In some of our parks, we’re so used to there being rules and guidelines that it’s like any tourist with minimal knowledge can come out and experience something. Right. And get a chance to touch it. And I think sometimes lose sight of the fact we actually can be in such danger out here that if you come with no knowledge and no respect for that level of danger and wild.
[00:47:40] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah.
[00:47:40] Adam Williams: Bad things can happen.
[00:47:41] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Absolutely. And kind of like talk with like instructors I’m training and stuff like that about this. But someone new to something that just like maybe shows up from even like a different state. And this could be river or avalanche, they’re unconsciously incompetent. They don’t actually know what they don’t know which. Yeah, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Especially if they want to get some education about it.
And maybe it’s like, you know, they’re like, okay, there is some stuff to learn about this.
I’m gonna go take a class. And then in that class, maybe they become really com, like consciously competent on some skills. But also they learn like, hey, I gotta like learn more about this and this. I’m kind of now consciously incompetent on some of these skills, which is also a good place to be knowing what you don’t know. Right.
[00:48:29] Adam Williams: So you gain some of that respect.
[00:48:30] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah, you gain some respect to back.
[00:48:31] Adam Williams: Off of what might otherwise be some cavalier bravado out there.
[00:48:35] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah.
[00:48:36] Adam Williams: Assuming that everything is just totally safe. There’s nothing to worry about.
[00:48:39] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s kind of like the big thing. We don’t want to be like paralyzed in fear in the back country or anything like that. We want to just show up with like a healthy respect, make good decisions. And, you know, I think if we’re making good decisions, then, you know, generally things are going to be all right. And I guess the other piece to that is too of being dialed in with like the rescue skills with your specific sport. So if you’re a whitewater kayaker or rafter, like, take a river rescue course.
If you are a backcountry skier, take an avalanche rescue course. Like, hopefully you’re really good at managing risk for yourself. That’s going to be kind of like the key first thing. But we’re humans, we all make bad decisions sometimes. And that could actually be really amplified in a backcountry environment of like, holy cow, we just triggered this avalanche and we dug our buddy out, but he’s really severely injured. So having kind of like the rescue and first aid skills to go along with what could be your worst case scenario out there, I think is another important piece.
[00:49:42] Adam Williams: Are you directly seeing year after year over time here climate change impacts the changes in weather patterns, things that are affecting this industry and whatever your future and the future of any of us who enjoy these sports might be.
[00:50:00] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah, so I think changes in climate are always kind of like an interesting topic. I’ve talked with a few people that work pretty like, scientifically at, at this level. I actually had a guy in an avalanche course a couple years ago who was a climatologist for the national oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. And I was great, kind of like picking his brain as we’re hiking up the stuff skin track about some of this stuff. And kind of like what I’ve seen as well as what he resonated was like, humans are really easy to remember, like the season before and how good it was. And then like, oh, wow, like this season was really horrible. Climate change is definitely a thing. He’s like, we, it doesn’t really work at that scale, if that makes sense. Like in being in this valley for, you know, know, the past decade and a half or whatever, I’ve definitely seen like good winters, bad winters, good river years, bad winter years.
And so I don’t know if I’ve like, directly observed it. I think some people that have been here longer than me, maybe I’ve talked with some, you know, old, old timer backcountry skiers and they’re like, oh yeah, we, we definitely had, you know, more snow or, you know, I was measuring, you know, this snow depth of this area or whatever, and it Seems like more for sure. I think it’s like one of those hard things for us as humans to like, comprehend how like big the world is and like how big some of those systems are entirely time as well. And time as well because we focus.
[00:51:31] Adam Williams: Only on, you know, the, let’s say, 75 year average of what we live. When the Earth and all of these systems have been around for so long we can’t even comprehend.
[00:51:42] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah, absolutely. So I think that’s part of it. And I think we’re going to see more good winters, we’re going to see more bad winters, we’re going to see more average winters. And that goes with like water years as well too.
And yeah, I don’t know, it’ll. It’ll be interesting to see, see what comes of all of all of this. I would say there is scientific data that like says like, yeah, the world is definitely like warming up in general. And that’s kind of like an interesting concept, potentially like a scary concept. I don’t know if there’s anything we can do about it. It’s like happening right.
[00:52:15] Adam Williams: Are there any predictions from scientists as it pertains to like our snowpack and those things which then of course affects the water flows as well from the snow melt. That gets both of your businesses potentially. Are you aware of any predictions where they’re saying, hey, we’ve got 50 years left with this ski industry and then it’s dead, or whatever that information might be?
[00:52:37] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: That story I actually did see, I don’t remember all of the details of it, but a presentation a couple seasons back at the Colorado Snow and Avalanche Workshop. And there was a guy, he was a snow climatologist, I forget his name, but really like an expert in his field or whatever. He spoke through of like, where might we actually see, you know, in the next 10, 20, 30 years, like, ski area is no longer really operational. He actually talked about like the east coast as being a place just because it’s cold there. They get moisture, they don’t really have the elevation, that type of thing. But we start seeing kind of like things warm up there due to like their lower elevation.
Maybe not a ton of skiing back on the east coast in like the next like 20 years or so. I think it was, I think Colorado. We’re actually in a pretty safe place because, because we have the elevation that goes along with it. So we’re gonna be cold as far as that goes, which is helpful. But yeah, I think, I don’t know. It was an interesting presentation and I would Say it’s like something on our mind all the time of, like, is it just gonna stop eventually? Or whatever. But I would say probably in my lifetime, it’s gonna be like, yeah, we had some good winters, we had some bad winters, and hopefully we are, you know, calling a good there.
[00:53:58] Adam Williams: You know, let’s wrap with this. I want to talk about a hypothetical. You have one adventure left. For whatever weird reason, I don’t know, we’re all gonna pack up and move to Mars. I don’t know. Okay, you have just one adventure left. Are you choosing snow or water? And then where would you go? What would that adventure be?
[00:54:18] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Oh, man, that’s a tough one. Uh, I would say one thing. Since I’ve recently gotten into this, like, newer sport of pack rafting, I might actually try to combine the two together. Like, actually ski down something with my pack, raft in my backpack, then get on a river and boat out. That would probably be like, you found a loophole. Yeah, I found a loophole here. That would be pretty ideal. But, man, I don’t know what. Which one I would choose. I think, like, I’m pretty. Pretty tied between water and snow, so. So there’s a way to combine them both together. I think that would be where I’d go.
[00:54:52] Adam Williams: Well, thanks for talking with me, Tommy. Absolutely imparting some knowledge here in an area that, like I said, I’ve been kind of intimidated and scared about the idea of getting out there with avalanches, and there’s so much that I would need to learn, I think. And you’re the guy I can learn from, so thanks for this. It’s been fun to talk with you.
[00:55:09] Tommy Gram-Ahlene: Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate the opportunity to be here.
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[00:55:20] Adam Williams: Thank you for listening to the We Are Chaffee Podcast. You can learn more about this episode and others in the show notes@wearechafypod.com and on Instagram at We Are Chaffeepod. I invite you to rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I also welcome your telling others about the We Are Chaffee Podcast. Help us to keep growing community and connection through through conversation.
The We Are Chaffee Podcast is supported by Chaffee County Public Health. Thank you to Andrea Carlstrom, director of Chaffee County Public Health and Environment, and to Lisa Martin, Community Advocacy Coordinator for the larger We Are Chaffee Storytelling Initiative. Once again, I’m Adam Williams, host, producer and photographer for the We Are Chaffee podcast. Till the next episode, as we say at We Are Chaffee, “share stories, make change.”
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